Hello everyone, and welcome to the discussion post for the serial installments of Rhythm of War! Haven’t read the chapter yet? Storms, what are you doing here! Spoilers, ahoy! Go read up before you join us.
Okay, all set? ::phew:: That was a close one. Before we start digging into the chapter, let’s take a moment to congratulate Brandon and the rest of Team Dragonsteel on a massively successful Kickstarter campaign! I’m so excited to get my Windrunner swag eventually. How about you, Alice? Which Radiant order are you?
Alice: After being a little baffled by some of the choices, and then realizing that they aren’t necessarily opposites, and that it’s okay to be balanced on some questions… I’m a Skybreaker! (I suspect people in my Facebook groups might be not at all surprised by this.)
Lyn: Yeah… in retrospect, I should have called that one.
A: I have to get a second set of Order swag, though; my Sanderson-fan (and sometimes beta reader) daughter is an Edgedancer—again to the surprise of no one at all.
L: If you haven’t had a chance to take the official quiz yet to find out which order of the Knights Radiant you’d be, check it out! It’s pretty cool.
A: Absolutely! And as I said, the questions aren’t intended to be opposites; don’t feel like you need to give extreme answers unless you really are extreme in that context. Most of the Orders value a certain balance on some of the questions.
L: Before we get into the fun stuff… A note from the comment moderation team. We’d like to remind everyone to remain vigilant about our spoiler policy, specifically in regards to chapters which have been released via readings Brandon has done (or through his newsletter) but haven’t been released here yet. Not everyone follows every single piece of news, so please be careful about talking about anything that hasn’t been officially released. Anything that’s been serialized here so far is free game, but the prologue to Dawnshard or any readings from future chapters should be whited out should you wish to discuss them in the comments below. Thank you all for being so vigilant and courteous of your fellow fans! We really appreciate it. I’d encourage you to head over to the Stormlight Archive subreddit or the 17th Shard forums if you want to discuss Dawnshard.
A: There are also a few places on Facebook where you can discuss things, but the only ones I know still require spoiler tagging. Wherever you go, please make sure you know what the rules are there, so you can be courteous to your fellow fans. Also, don’t forget there are valid differences of opinion within fandom. I was disappointed to see some of the behavior right here last week. We can do better than that.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now (but not Dawnshard)—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
There is one small Mistborn spoiler in Fabrial Technology section, but it’s white-texted, so you’re safe to read on if all you’ve read is Stormlight!
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan, Kaladin, Navani
WHERE: The Shattered Plains, Hearthstone
WHEN: Day 1 (immediately following the events of Chapter 5)
Shallan/Veil/Radiant is brought by the Sons of Honor before Ialai Sadeas, whom Veil intends to assassinate. Meanwhile, Kaladin and the rest of the Windrunners are still fighting the Fused at Hearthstone. Leshwi spares Sigzil’s life, and Navani spots Moash standing in the distance, overlooking the battle. In the middle of Kaladin’s one-on-one duel with Leshwi, he sees the unknown teleporting Fused attacking civilians, and Leshwi encourages him to go and rescue them.
Overall Reactions
A: Up there in the “WHO” part of the chapter recap, I was going to make notes each time as to which persona we were seeing in Shallan’s POV. I gave up. With the current mode of functioning, they switch back and forth too much to keep track! I’ll just stick with tracking the scene switches.
L: Forgive me a tiny joke.
A: LOL. Good one.
Humans
Shallan had always viewed Sadeas as a blowhard. A fortress like this—and the escape tunnel she’d traveled through—made Veil revise that assessment. She sifted through Shallan’s memories, and what Veil saw in the man was pure craftiness.
Shallan didn’t have many memories of Ialai, but Veil knew enough to be careful.
A: Well, he was a blowhard; he fits the definition quite well. He was also very clever, and his wife perhaps even more so. They made a formidably crafty team. They were just selfish, too, convinced of their own wisdom and right to power.
“But I still think it’s odd how many Windrunners are standing around.”
“Rushu,” Navani said, rubbing her forehead. “Do try to focus.”
“Well, I do try. I simply fail. Like that fellow over there? What’s he doing? Not guarding the ship. Not helping with the refugees. Shouldn’t he be fighting?”
A: Rather a comic way to reintroduce that horrible wretch…
L: This gave me such a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, once we realized who it was.
Rushu missed the fact that this man’s uniform was black, that he wore no patch on his shoulder. That his narrow face and lean figure would mark him as a man interdicted. A traitor.
Moash. The man who had killed Navani’s son.
A: I hated Moash before it was cool. #noredemption
Okay, sorry, but I loathe that creature. Loathe. Wouldn’t you know, he’d show up right off the bat to make life miserable.
L: Moash.
Singers/Fused
It was vital his team keep to the Heavenly Ones’ sense of honor. So long as the enemy agreed to one-on-one combat, his soldiers were never in danger of being overwhelmed and wiped out.
The forces on the ground might mercilessly brutalize one another, but up here—in the skies—they’d found mutual respect. The respect of combatants who would kill one another, but as part of a contest, not a slaughter. Break that unspoken rule, gang up on Leshwi now, and that precarious balance would end.
A: I kinda like it… but it scares me. What happens when one side breaks the unspoken rule?
More than that, though, it feels a little like these two groups are just playing a little game over here in the corner, and letting the rest of the Radiants—to say nothing of the ordinary soldiers—fend for themselves. While the Windrunners are generally keeping the Heavenly Ones occupied and not killing other people, they’re also not doing much to actually win this war. And that bothers me.
L: I get what you mean, but I do want to point out that killing Heavenly Ones isn’t going to do much to “win the war” either, since they’ll just be reborn. I suppose you could make the argument that eventually they’d run out of singers to possess, but that’s… that’s genocide we’re talking about. Is wiping out an entire people worth winning the war?
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
A: That would be a horrible plan of action, and not even because of the genocide aspect. There are probably millions of singers out there; remember the ubiquity of the parshman slaves before the Everstorm? If every single Radiant killed a Fused every time they met in battle, it would take years (or decades—I haven’t run the math) to run out of singers. During that time, they would equally run out of humans, because the Radiants wouldn’t win every single time, and they’d constantly be trying to train up new Radiants. It would be racial suicide. As Kaladin notes, a competent Fused will be back in play at the next Everstorm (no more than nine days away), while a competent Radiant will be months away at best. No, I understand the rationale of playing by the rules of the Heavenly Ones, and overall I think it works in favor of the humans. It just grates on me that it seems so much like a game.
On the whole, though, I think that’s partly getting it from Kaladin’s perspective on this particular day, and I’m very sure it didn’t feel like a game to Sigzil…
Leshwi shot forward and speared Sigzil in the chest. Her weapon impaled him straight through, bursting from the back of his blue uniform, slick with blood. He struggled, gasping, Stormlight leaking from his mouth. Leshwi hummed a loud tone, and the gemstone on her spear began to glow, sucking Stormlight from her prey.
…
“No!” Kaladin shouted. He couldn’t simply watch. He couldn’t. He Lashed himself forward, but Leshwi met his eyes. He paused.
She yanked her spear from Sigzil’s chest right before his Stormlight went out. Sigzil sagged in the air, and Kaladin grabbed him, holding him as he blinked in a daze, clutching his silvery Shardspear.
“Drop your weapon,” Kaladin said to him, “and bow to her.”
“What? Sir?” Sigzil frowned as his wound healed.
“Drop your spear,” Kaladin said, “and bow to her.”
Sigzil, looking confused, did as he requested. Leshwi nodded to him in turn.
A: Here, last week’s chapter comes full circle. Kaladin decided not to kill the Fused he was fighting, feeling that one more death wasn’t worth it, especially when the Fused would simply be reborn in the next Everstorm. Because he pulled back from that kill, Leshwi did the same here—and it means a lot more to the reader, because…
Leshwi shouldn’t care that Kaladin had spared the creature. It had been a foolish gesture toward a being who could be reborn with each new storm. Then again, Leshwi probably knew that if Sigzil were killed, a new Radiant could be raised up using his spren. It wasn’t exactly the same—in fact, in terms of Kaladin’s relief, there was a huge difference.
A: HUGE.
L: Absolutely. I don’t want to lose any more members of Bridge 4, please and thank you.
Leshwi eyed him as they hovered. Then Kaladin heard the screaming. … there was a small group of people standing in front of the burning manor… The Fused from earlier, the one that could become a red line of light. He had gathered the soldiers Kaladin had sent away. Several were accosting townspeople, slamming them to the ground, threatening them with weapons and causing them to scream in pain and panic.
Kaladin felt a burning anger. This Fused went after the civilians?
He heard an angry-sounding hum beside him. Leshwi had drifted near—closer than he should have let her get—but she didn’t strike. She watched the Fused and his soldiers below, and the sound of her angry humming intensified.
A: As poorly as I thought of her in Oathbringer, I’m reluctantly beginning to like her in Rhythm of War. Sparing Sigzil was a good step, but her anger at that Fused and his soldiers, implying that she sees their behavior toward civilians as dishonorable (which it is), I’m starting to think that maybe she’s not all awful?
L: Yeah, I have to admit that I’m coming around to her. There’s something to be said about an honorable enemy.
A: Yes, and I’m sure I’ll get over the “it’s just a game to them” feeling soon enough.
Relationships & Romances
L: I’m probably going to catch flak for this in the comments, but I just have to note that I have a tiny bit of a ship for Kal and Leshwi. Probably just because I’m partial to that “enemies turned lovers” trope. I don’t actually expect it to go anywhere, nor am I super invested in it (not like I was for certain other ships regarding Kaladin and ::ahem:: a fashion-minded person), just… I wouldn’t be upset if it happened!
A: (Hey, we could have a whole new race to parallel the Horneaters and Herdazians!) Also… yeah, now that you broke up with him… ;)
L: Amusingly enough I never shipped him with Lyn!
A: I’m pretty sure there was a ship for them, though.
L: Yes, there were some. I watched the setting sail of that ship with great unease and trepidation (and not a few chuckles), only to have Brandon shoot it with the canon. (See what I did there?)
A: LOL. Did that ship ever have a name? And what about this new one you’ve launched? (I’m terrible at naming them.)
L: I don’t want to validate the other one with a name, but let’s see… Lesh-in? Kal-wi? Okay, I like Kalwi. That’s just hilarious.
A: Works for me! (Now excuse me while I chuckle over here in the corner for a while…)
Bruised & Broken
Adolin had killed Highprince Sadeas in a moment of honest passion. Veil had come to finish the job he’d begun.
Today Veil intended to assassinate Ialai Sadeas.
A: That’s … probably not a good idea…
L: Morally, absolutely. While she was almost certainly a party to her husband’s dastardly schemes, she didn’t carry them out. Even the ones she’s allegedly doing now probably aren’t putting lives at risk… or are they? It sure would be more ethical to imprison and try her for her sins, but the middle of a war is a spectacularly bad time for that, and come to think of it, if she’s being viewed here as an enemy combatant… phew. A lot to unpack and think about, here…
A: I’m not a very good Skybreaker. I was thinking more on the lines of “this is a book, and killing Ialai is guaranteed to have repercussions that will make us all cringe. Just don’t, okay?” LOL.
L: But will it? Will it really? Who’s left to avenge her, at this point? Amaram’s gone, all she seems to have left are her inept lackeys in the Sons of Honor. (Let’s face it, this isn’t nearly as potentially cringe-worthy as “And for my boon…” ::laughs::)
A: (Oh, don’t remind me! That was the absolute stupidest thing he could have done—and it was totally believable for the character. ::kicks Kaladin in the shins::)
L: Regardless of Kal’s inherent stupidity about certain things, I’m not sure what repercussions Veil could honestly expect from taking out Ialai at this point. Seems pretty cut and dry… she’s committing treason. Cut off the head of the snake, and all that.
A: When you put it that way, it makes sense to go ahead with it, even though Dalinar would be appalled by the plan. I think my reaction to this was mostly on the lines of “assassination in a book almost always leads to something bad for the assassin.”
L: Szeth would absolutely agree with you on that one.
Kaladin groaned, the deaths of so many he’d failed flashing before him. Tien? Nalma? Elhokar?
He was again in that terrible nightmare at the Kholinar palace, where his friends killed one another. Screams and lights and pain and blood all swirled around one image: A man Kaladin was sworn to protect, lying on the floor.
Moash’s spear straight through him.
A: This hurts. SO MUCH HURTS. Clearly, this is something that he has not been able to accept or deal with yet. It seems possible that part of his sleeplessness is related to this; he’s been talking about nightmares, and I don’t think referring to that scene as “nightmare” is just coincidence.
L: Speaking of Tien, I feel the need to share this heart-wrenching fanart someone shared on reddit the other day, because it’s beautiful and sad and lovely. ::ahem:: Anyway. Kaladin has a lot of trauma to unpack, and he just… hasn’t had a single moment of downtime to do so. Even if he did, I’m not sure quiet time would help. Kal doesn’t seem like the type to self-analyze—he doesn’t have the mental tools in his toolbox to assess and remedy the wounds of the soul, as he would the wounds of the flesh. I think he’s been using his duties as a way to distract himself from his trauma, but they’re just building up, one upon the other, and eventually, they’re going to collapse and bury him.
Weighty Words / The Knights Radiant
They led her through the streets quickly, the hood still on. Shallan took over, as she had an incredible—likely supernatural—ability to sense and memorize direction. She mapped their path in her head. Sneaky little cremlings; they led her in a large double loop, ending at a location near where they’d emerged from the cellar.
A: This makes me snicker a little. They’re being so careful, not letting anyone see the beginning or the ending of their tunnel, trying to hide the relationship of the cellar to their base… and none of it matters, because Shallan is just following the map in her head. She can come back at any time in another disguise and smoke the whole thing if she wants. Handy trick, that. We have yet to see how Lightweavers (as a whole) function in battle scenarios against the Fused and the singers, but for espionage and probably sabotage, the possibilities are endless.
L: This is assuming that this mapping ability does have to do with her Lightweaving, and isn’t just something unique to her. I’m very interested to see how much of what’s going on with Shallan is actually specific to Lightweavers, and how much is just… her. The way she takes “memories” of things and her artistic ability always struck me as being unique to her and not indicative of her surgebinding abilities, but… I could be wrong!
Nearby, Renarin had stepped up to the family with the sniffling children. He summoned a small globe of light, then began bouncing it between his hands. Such a simple thing, but the children who saw it grew wide-eyed, forgetting their fear.
A: This, on the other hand, is just all the warm fuzzies. I love this boy.
L: Renarin is such a sweet little cinnamon roll, I adore him. I think that Tien would have been a bit like him, if he’d lived.
A: Oh, now I’m sad all over again. They were within a year of the same age, too. They’d probably have been great friends.
The ball of light was bright blue. Part of Navani felt it should be red—to reveal the true nature of the spren that hid inside Renarin. A Voidspren. Or at least an ordinary spren corrupted to the enemy’s side. None of them knew what to do about that fact, least of all Renarin. As with most Radiants, he hadn’t known what he was doing when he began. Now that he’d formed the bond, it was too late to turn back.
A: This must be excruciating for Renarin. He’s always been viewed as the odd one, and felt it; at best, this is more of the same.
L: At least he still has Bridge 4. Everyone there is an outsider in one way or another, and I’m confident that they’re not treating him any differently.
Renarin claimed the spren was trustworthy, but something was odd about his powers. They had managed to recruit several standard Truthwatchers—and they could create illusions like Shallan. Renarin couldn’t do that. He could only summon lights, and they did strange, unnatural things sometimes…
A: I’m glad they’re doing comparisons. Now we know that there is definitely a difference between the way Renarin can use his Surges and the way most Truthwatchers can. We also know that normally, Truthwatchers and Lightweavers use Illumination the same way This seems to destroy one of my earlier theories; I was hoping that Renarin’s difference was merely a matter of “different Orders, different usage”—but apparently not.
L: Yeah, this is fascinating! Why light, specifically? Why does it do “strange unnatural” things, and what constitutes as “unnatural” in the case of a glowing ball of light? (I’d argue that’s pretty unnatural to start with.) Especially since we are seeing evidence that the Fused powers seem to be very similar to those of the Knights Radiant. Why are Renarin’s so different? So many questions……
[Dalinar] pulled his hands together, and the perpendicularity opened as a burst of light. Gloryspren, like golden spheres, began to spiral around him. Navani got a better glimpse of Shadesmar this time. And again she heard that tone. That was new, wasn’t it?
A: We don’t have anything but Navani’s observation to go on, but I’ll take her word for it. She’s hearing a distinctive tone when her husband opens a perpendicularity. What does that mean?
L: I think it’s really cool how important sound and light are to this world. It’s really unique to any other fantasy book I’ve read.
“What did you see?” she asked Rushu.
“I didn’t see anything, Brightness,” Rushu said. “But . . . I felt something. Like a pulse, a powerful thump. For a moment I felt as if I were falling into eternity. . . .”
A: A pulse, eh? Just that single thump, or a sequence? I suppose we’ll have to wait for that answer until he does it again when they’re observing.
L: This is such a big event, opening a doorway into basically an alternate dimension, that it would make sense to me for there to be some sort of pressure difference that would result in a tangible feel/sound.
Secret Societies
She wondered if anyone in the area had found it odd that they were leading around a woman with a sack on her head. Judging by how upset they seemed as they finally pulled her into a building, they weren’t thinking very clearly.
A: You almost have to feel sorry for these people. They’re so pathetic. To be fair, the organization has been used and abused by power-hungry people for about a decade at this point. The best and brightest are mostly either subverted or dead, and what’s left are mostly delusional about their place in the world.
L: Who knows what sort of conspiracy theories and mistruths these poor people have been fed for the last few years?
A: True. It’s more fun to laugh at them for being a babbling, bumbling band of baboons…
L: (The author in me needs to applaud you on that alliteration, Alice.)
A: …but they’ve most certainly been lied to. In times of chaos, people do latch onto things that play to their own weaknesses and fears. While not all of these people were necessarily Sadeas loyalists and inclined to hate Dalinar, they probably are mostly from the camps of those who opposed him. (They wouldn’t be out here in the warcamps otherwise, right?)
What We Missed (In the Timeskip)
Highprince Thanadal had started this new “kingdom” at the warcamps. But soon after Ialai had set up here, Thanadal had been found dead, supposedly knifed by a prostitute. Vamah—the other highprince who hadn’t supported Dalinar—had fled the warcamps in the night. He seemed to believe Ialai’s lie that Dalinar had ordered the assassination.
A: Well, now, isn’t that interesting. There are a couple of names that fell out of circulation for a while. We didn’t hear much about them during Oathbringer; they were at the warcamps doing their own thing, but other threats were much more urgent. Now we learn that after Ialai fled Urithiru in disgrace at the end of Oathbringer, she went back to the Sadeas warcamp on the Shattered Plains. (True, going back to the Sadeas princedom wasn’t much of an option, what with all of Alethkar being occupied by the singer armies and all. I wonder if she made any effort to retrieve the too-young nephew who was supposed to be the Sadeas heir.)
But what happened to the highprinces who would have been Ialai’s most likely allies? Would she decide to assassinate them, as Shallan seems to be thinking? Why would she do that? It doesn’t sound like a Dalinar thing to do, so I’m with Shallan in not buying that line. Jasnah, though… Would Jasnah have sent an assassin for Thanadal? If she did, Vamah may have been wise to leave.
L: I absolutely wouldn’t put it past Jasnah.
That left Ialai Sadeas the one true remaining power here in the warcamps. She had an army, had co-opted the Sons of Honor, and was demanding tariffs from arriving trade caravans.
A: Well, okay, I can see that… sort of. But I still think she should have wanted allies more than singular power..
Geography
A: I just have to put in here the fascination of the Sadeas camp having a tunnel from their fortress to the chasm. I wonder if Torol and Ialai had that made, or if it was another one of the pre-existing artifacts they discovered and used.
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
With a captured spren, you may begin designing a proper fabrial. It is a closely guarded secret of artifabrians that spren, when trapped, respond to different types of metals in different ways. A wire housing for the fabrial, called a “cage,” is essential to controlling the device.
A: Welp, that’s a new one on me! I don’t know if it hasn’t been mentioned before, or if I just never noticed, but the metal of the cage matters as much as the gemstone? Now I’m going to have to go back and look! …
I’m back. Nope, the specific metal in any given fabrial is rarely mentioned—in fact, only once that I could find. There was a description of a Soulcaster made with “silvery metal.” Other than that, it’s just a lot of “metal cage” and “wire and gemstones” description. So this is new information. Sweet!
L: I wonder what it is about the metals that makes the spren respond differently. Something about the chemical makeup, the conductivity, or maybe the “cognitive” elements? (Sort of like how Shallan needs to “convince” objects to be something different, does how the metal views itself make some sort of difference here?)
A: So many good questions, and so few answers! It could legitimately be any of those. Mistborn spoiler—
L: (The following is a “spoiler” only if you haven’t read ANYTHING of Mistborn, as this is revealed VERY early in the first book. So if you don’t know anything at all about Mistborn and would prefer to keep it that way, don’t highlight this.)
A: In Mistborn, [highlight to read spoiler] the different metals do different things in much the same way different gemstones behave on Roshar. Is there something about the way a metal reacts with Investiture?
L: We know that certain gems are associated with certain Surges, so it wouldn’t be too far of a stretch to assume that the same is true of certain metals.
“There’s someplace beyond Shadesmar, a place where Dalinar gets this power. Once long ago, the tower was maintained by a Bondsmith like my husband—and from what the spren have said, I conclude that the tower got its power from that place beyond Shadesmar as well.”
A: Now that’s an interesting theory for her to propose. We don’t know how much Realmatic understanding they have, but Dalinar at least knows about the Spiritual Realm a little. He’d have to, in order to create the perpendicularity, right? But why has Navani concluded that Urithiru’s power comes straight from the Spiritual Realm? I’m not sure I follow her thinking. Has she concluded that the tower is a unique kind of fabrial that needs a power source different from the highstorms that power all the other fabrials?
L: If you need a bit of a refresher on the three different realms of the Cosmere, check out this information page on the Coppermind.
“… I don’t think either of them realistically understands how much work goes into keeping this one ship in the air.”
“Hundreds of laborers in Urithiru turning winches to raise and lower the ship,” Rushu said, with a nod. “Dozens of chulls used to move it laterally. Thousands of fabrials to facilitate both—all needing to be perpetually reinfused. Careful synchronization via a half dozen spanreeds to coordinate maneuvers. Yes, it is highly improbable we could field more than two or three of these vessels.”
A: Understatement much? Highly improbable indeed. The fabrials are really cool and all, but that’s a LOT of work to move one ship. It’s a marvel of engineering, but it’s really not very practical, is it?
L: This is hurting my head to think about. I just don’t have enough practical mathematical knowledge to suss out the implications!
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others, and please remember not to mention anything about the prologue to Dawnshard here! If you want to reference the other Interludes and chapters Brandon has released in other forms (7 & 8, Venli POV, Eshonai flashback), please do so behind white text. There are spoilers there, and not everyone has seen them yet.
Alice is excited to begin the gamma read on Rhythm of War this coming week, and would like to plant the suggestion now that next week’s readalong might be a touch flaky. Just sayin’…
Lyndsey’s debut novel is now available on Amazon, featuring a bounty hunter attempting to clear the name of a notorious thief charged with murder in a magical floating city. Check it out here! If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
I do not have much time to comment this week. Great chapters, but where is Adolin? After being teased for finally seeing him, still no Adolin. I hope the long wait will be worth it. That’s it. I want Adolin back into the story, great stuff with Ialai, but I want him there too. This is brief but I have very little time.
I have mixed feelings about these chapters…
I don’t like that we don’t hear Shallan anymore because Veil is her main persona.
I don’t like that Dalinar isn’t a viewpoint character anymore.
I would love to have some Listener pov. This is their book after all.
Is Navani seeing into Spiritual Realm (where Dalinar gets more Stormlight?) Interesting, why other person can’t see it.
Oh yeah those two definitely want to f**k.
Hello! Newbie here. :)
I think it makes sense for Navani to assume that Stormlight must come from the Spiritual Realm, just through process of elimination.
Also, the bit about metals reacting strangely to Investiture reminds me of (Secret History Spoilers)
When Kelsier notices that souls and metals look the same from the Cognitive Realm.
Okay. So there is SO something going on between Leshwi and Kaladin… mutual respect and intrigue for sure, maybe more?
Really interested in seeing where this relationship will go.
@2 I agree about Shallan no longer being a character. And I want Adolin to face cnsequences with Ialai, not Veil murdering her. What a bummer…. I hope this does not turn into another disappointment where Sanderson makes the Sadeas aftermath be about everyone except Adolin!
hmmm…Kalwi could be a thing. He constantly looks forward to fighting against her and knows her even in a different body. They could become great friends or life partners me thinks. There’s a great amount of respect there and I wonder if that will play a part in the long run to winning the battle. It also could help if Rlain becomes a part of the windrunners…maybe that’s the person that has a spren but has refused to bond with it. Hmmm
I just hit this in my re-read of TWoK(third time through and still noticing new stuff…), in the first scene where Shallan is acting as Jasnah’s ward, there’s mention of a scholar who put forward the idea of there being three realms, and is being spoken of as a major figure, so it seems Rosharans, at least in scholarly circles, have some grasp of that aspect of the Cosmere. To what degree isn’t clear as that’s all the mention it gets.
My mind immediately went to Mistborn with the mention of metal. Another tie in of Roshar’s magics to elsewhere in the Cosmere, makes me think there are going to be aspects of color and sound appearing in the places they haven’t yet, as I mentioned earlier in the reading where Navani first mentions the tone, at some point too. Something to watch for in the future.
Wait, they can use the Oathgates to travel to Shadesmar now? Wasn’t “Travel between realms” via Oathgates banned by Honor? Do Dalinar pose that much of Honor’s authority to change that as well?
And the screaming begins. Again.
But like, I just gotta say this chapter and discussion were awesome. do kinda miss interactions with Adolin tho, but we did get a mention of renarin and we know that pile of crem moash is still lurking around.
I do think there is more to this, as we have heard previously in Oathbringer that the Oathgates were not allowed to transport people between the realms due to a command from Honor, but this seems to have changed during the time skip. Maybe something to do with Dalinar or the Stormfather after The Battle of Thaylen Field?
Very exciting that we’re getting so many interesting tidbits each new chapter!
I find it very interesting that to use Shallan’s resonance ability she needs to be in control. We’ve seen her other personas use lightweaving but something about the resonance is keyed to Shallan’s personality.
Also, being able to make a perfect mental map is something new. I suppose it is tangentially related to her ability to take snapshots of a scene but it almost feels like it is creeping on our theorized Elsecaller resonance of perfect direction.
Could somebody please tell me where Brando Sando released chaper 7 and 8?
@7 I think it’s worth noting with Rlain he was notably absent at the end of OB and has been so far in RoW despite it seeming like the rest of Bridge Four is deployed as a group. There’s WOB that his absence from the end of OB was deliberate, I’m leaning towards the idea that shortly after his PoV he managed to leave Urithiru. I’m sure we’ll see him at some point in RoW but I’m not sure he’ll be ending up a Windrunner, possibly a different order.
I definitely think that there’s something going on with Kaladin and Leshwi. Kalwi has potential . . . .
@12. I think we get hints of this in WoR, when Kaladin and Shallan are stuck in the chasms and she draws a map from memory. But yes, it’s certainly interesting.
Also, I’m very curious as to why the Heavenly Ones are described as “much less . . . brutal” Why are they acting differently from the others?
@those who are missing characters, keep in mind that we’re only on Chapter 6.
Note that Brandon has stated (sorry don’t remember which platform) that we should look at the beginning of this book as the “ending of the in-between book of the last year that took place”…
So there’s good reason why we haven’t *yet* seen Adolin’s POV, as there are potentially more important things going on with other characters POVs that need to be closed up first in regard to the last year, before moving on to the real story of Rhythm of War. I don’t see these chapters as an indication of Adolin’s presence in the book as a whole.
Similarly with Veil taking front stage of Shallan’s persona in these chapters. While I too don’t like that, we have to acknowledge that she is primary because Shallan is currently acting in sabotage/trickery, which is what Veil is mainly there for. I again don’t see that as an indication of how the whole book will go.
Similarly with Venli & Eshonai, Brandon said that their book actually doesn’t start right away (their flashbacks are also delayed in the story), so I’m not concerned that they haven’t shown up yet.
@13 he did a reading for the online SDCC, it should be on his YouTube channel, I think. He read only Kaladin’s PoV for chapter 7 and part of chapter 8.
I think the Heavenly Ones’ honor in combat is because the Singers are native to Roshar and they were of Honor long before Odium and the humans came. They might be the oldest of the old ones and remember what it was like to have Honor. Heck, their spren could even be super corrupted Honorspren.
For anyone concerned about the lack of certain POVs, please remember we are only six chapters in. Six. Patience people!
@16
As of current the book is written mostly from Kaladin’s perspective with little glimpses of Navani and ugh Veil. But what about Venli and Listeners?
Adolin is somewhere else probably, but Dalinar is here, and yet we don’t hear anything from him.
Yeah, good tibid about Oathgates. I missed it.
@18. That’s a cool idea. I don’t know if it completely explains the difference in their attitudes, though. For instance, we’ve seen that the teleporting Fused is perfectly comfortable attacking civilians, versus the Heavenly Ones who actually challenge everyone to single combat in order to be honorable. Also, it seems as if the former attitude is shared by the majority of the other Fused, so there definitely seems to be something different between them. I think you’re right about them having been corrupted from Honor, though.
Maybe each of the different Fused has different holdover traits from this? I can’t think if we’ve seen any evidence for that, though.
In a previous chapter Dalinar was said to have indicated there would be 9 variants of the fused. Presumably one for each of the nine variants of radiant spren not including Bondsmiths for obvious reasons. The heavenly ones are likely linked to honor spren based on the powerset/behavior
I think Shallan takes out Ialai one way or another I This first part of the book. The story no longer needs infighting between the princedoms as we have moved on to higher stakes. Similarly the Sons of Honor no longer serve a purpose and are being done away with. Ialai is ever bit as responsibility as Sadeas and I don’t have any issue with Shallan killing Ialai.
i don’t think Jasnah would have sent that assassin. If she had Ialai would have been the target
@20, Notom – Yes, we haven’t gotten a Dalinar POV yet, but we just got a whole book with him, and we’re still seeing him through Navani’s perspective, which I think right now is more interesting for dropping info and experiencing the battle atop the ship. I feel I know Dalinar well enough at this point to guess what he’s thinking during this battle/rescue: “Watch the battle, make sure everyone’s got enough stormlight, You CANNOT have my pain, etc.”
I have a feeling that Venli’s current actions aren’t paced like Kaladin’s and Shallan’s are right now, and to cut to her would break the tension/flow. I assume Brandon wanted to keep on the opening fast-paced theme until the action calmed, and then cut to our other important characters.
@23 We also just got 3 books with Kaladin. We know him well enough and have seen enough of his battles. I find it more interesting to get a Dalinar viewpoint because he wasn’t a central character until book 3 and there’s still more intrigue with the Bondsmith.
I can definitely see a case for Kalwi or Leshadin, it’s much more pronounced in this chapter than in the last. They could be a precursor for emerging Human-Singer romantic relationships. And if Horneaters and Herdazians are any indication it’s more of a re-emergence than an emergence. So would said Singer have to go into mateform to conceive or what?
I’m all for Shallan tying up a loose end but I’d be a bit disappointed that Ialai didn’t turn out to be a bigger threat. At this point she isn’t even at miniboss or mid-level boss and I expect more from her.
On the different personalities of the Fused
It could be possible that we get clues of their personalities by matching Fused with Orders and their divine attributes. The Voidbinding chart is basically the KR chart flipped radially (or so I’ve been told). Maybe those divine attributes are flipped as well. The surges were tied to the attributes either naturally or due to Shardic intent so it would make sense to me if those entities with similar powers would tend to mimic each other in behavior. If this is the case then we have 2 Orders to consider if we’re to explain the behavior of the Teleporting Fused. Elsecaller and Willshaper, Wise/Careful and Resolute/ Builder respectfully. I don’t know which one could be flipped to describe the Fused behavior but I’m convinced that I am looking in the right direction. More observation needed.
Loved this chapter.
@18, Not Quite Dead Yet Shardblade; @21 MistsAndDreams
Yeah, I would agree with that. If the ancient Singers were of Honor then they would be in tune with the Surges as well. Perhaps there would be a 10th order if not for the fact that Odium doesn’t seem like he would want to share part of his power. I find the concept of corrupted honor in the Singers very fascinating. These would probably the closest to turning “back” to Honor, if that’s even a possibility.
@25, Evil Monkey.
I’ll be very happy if Shallan takes out Ialai. She’s already shown that she’s a bit more ruthless than the others, and between Dalinar and Kaladin, no one else is going to do it. Ialai hasn’t really been built up and Shallan has a few more mysteries to uncover (Ghostbloods, the Unmade) that are more “important” to the story to be wrapped up, in my opinion.
@@@@@24 Notom – We also got 3 books with Dalinar, and they each got only one book focused on their respective POV.
And Kaladin was our first main character, and a very primary character to this five-book SA arc, so it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that we’ve got his POV. I’m not going to get into last week’s downward spiral (I stayed away from it then), but I’ll simply say that whether or not some feel like they’re done with Kaladin for whatever reason, Brandon obviously isn’t, and he’s still central to the story.
This is probably a simple agree to disagree, which is ok by me.
@27
Dalinar wasn’t a central character in books 1 and 2. It was focused mostly on Kaladin, but since book 3 I believe it’s Dalinar’s time to shine. Kaladin had a lot of story, but now I believe we should hear stories of other characters or at least share the focus.
Let’s agree to disagree.
So, I’ve never posted here, let alone any kind of speculation, but Navani’s focus on Realmatic Theory here, and her longtime stated fascination with fabrials and artifabrians, combined with her assumption of responsibility for keeping everything running – from the party the night of Gavilar’s assassination, to the particulars of the Kingdom before and after that, to the nitty-gritty of Dalinar’s High Kingdom after his collapse post-memory restoration, to now the management of Urithiru – plus her ability to see into Shadesmar and hear a tone when her Bondsmith husband opens a perpendicularity, ALL COMBINED with Navani being the Epigraph source and their subject being the method of trapping a spren into a gem, leads me to only one conclusion (white-texted to err on the side of caution):
Somehow, they will awaken and Navani will bond the Sibling, who will return to power Urithiru by taking up residence within the giant gem-construct in the Gem Library. Navani will become the second Bondsmith – after all, what more qualifications do you need than a long history of being the glue that holds entire kingdoms and alliances together as well as being part of a love-bond sanctified by Remnant-of-Honor-Himself the Stormfather?
Ialai is like Graves I think. You Could have come out of Words of Radiance believing Graves was going to be a major player but then nope, dead.
@29 Brin – Not sure about the particulars of the Sibling awakening and taking residence, but the implications certainly indicate things potentially moving in that direction for Navani, and her being well suited to the task!
@30, I so hope Ialai has such a quick and solid end like Graves did!
@29
Interesting! What about Navani The Willshaper?
I suspect Moash is going to get a redemption in this book. Maybe it will be an Ingtar like redemption from WoT but a redemption nonetheless. He is not power hungry like Amaram, Sadeas or Ialai.
I never brought into Elhokar is Dalinar’s Tien view that Kaladin espoused. Tien was barely a village teenager while Elhokar was a married royal prince with kids and there is a significant difference between innocence and stupidity.
This also has the potential to create a rift between the Kholins so it will be interesting to see if and when this plays out on the page.
Yes, the aerial contests do look like a game, but they also seem somewhat inspired by the air battles in WW1, when pilots saw themselves as a people apart and new chivalric knights. Even so, a few members of Bridge 4 should have died during the gap year while they were learning the ropes.
I wonder if it isn’t Dalinar’s presence that allows for this odd situation, since due to their bargain it prevents Odium from manifesting enough to push/command the flying Fused directly. OTOH, lulling the opposition into complacency appears to be his and their strategy this time around. Still there is such a cognitive disconnect between the visions of past Desolations that killed 90% of the population of Alethela and this. Even the bad teleporting Fused only brutalises civilians instead of killing them… Hopefully, this is all in preparation for an overwhelming blow.
It also looks like in the past Odium’s side used to have technological superiority. Which makes sense, given that the Fused retained their knowledge and crafting skills and were numerous enough to teach them to their side during their returns. The Heralds were just too few and too short on time for that, while mortal scholars and craftsmen got killed off during the Desolations, and struggle for survival afterwards had no room for anything but the basics. By the time the Radiants evolved, too much has been lost and the humans came to rely on them instead.
So, this is going to be one of the upheavals. The other will be the Fused getting their hands on a huge cache of dead shards, IMHO. Imagine the teleportation Fused with a shardblade! He would have killed Kaladin easily and gone through the Windrunners like a hot knife through butter.
Navani definitely sees more than normal when Dalinar opens perpendicularities. Still, it could be that she is just becoming his squire… though I just don’t see who else would bond the Sibling, if not her. And, thankfully, Kaladin did finally tell about Moash. I was flabbergasted that he didn’t after WoR and feared more of the same here.
Shallan has definitely walked into a trap. I bet that there is a larkin in that hutch and that “Ialai” keeps to the shadows for a very good reason. Either it isn’t really her, or she has successfully bonded Yelig-nar. Adolin to the rescue!
I also have a couple of issues with the situation in the camps. First of all, how could Jasnah have been abandoned them to the rebellious Highprinces and then Ialai, when that’s where the refugee wave from Alethkar should have arrived? Surely the southern parts have held out long enough for some people to escape? Why are we only seeing war refugees in Hearthstone? Second – don’t the Highprinces have families, heirs, etc.? Sure, it is convenient for simplicity’s sake, but also very unbelievable.
Gepeto@1:
Adolin could have never been taken prisoner – he is a shardbearer. And the shadowy presence likely isn’t Ialai anyway. Shallan’s mission is going to end in fiasco and he’ll have to pull her out of i, I bet.
Notom@2:
Dalinar is still a PoV character, just not in part one.
One chapter, yet a good one! First impressions before reading our rereaders:
I like the strong sense of honor (ha) that the Heavenly Ones show here. Lady Leshwi especially; I am starting to like her (and her actions) a lot. And I agree with some of the commenters from last week: the spark and tension between her and Kaladin is almost palatable. I think the Cosmere may have a new ship developing…
I knew Kaladin sparing the Fused would come back to help him in some fashion, and here we go: instant gratification!
-Also, Thank God Brandon didn’t fall into the SFF trope of killing your Black (okay, Azish) characters early! I admit I was a little worried about Sigzil for a minute. He’s a clerk, not a soldier; he and other WIndrunners who are not great Warriors need to focus more on defense and protection of Dalinar and the scribes. Anyway, I’m glad my boy made it through.
I really like Shallan’s arc right now. There’s not a lot of action, but I’m here for the subterfuge. Also, whose desires will win out: Radiant or Veil? I gotta admit, I won’t shed a tear if there becomes one less Sadeas.
F***ing Moash. I’m glad Navani knows him for the scum that he is, and right away let’s everyone know that cowardly, traitorous wretch is there. More from that PoS to come, obviously
(ETA – whoops, Navani isn’t scum, it’s that dbag, Moash)
@34 Isilel, I think Ialai would make an excellent candidate to host one of the unmade, that or possibly bond a voidspren.
I’m on board with the Kaladin/Leshwi ship. And, really, as pointed out, trying to kill all the Fused is a horrible plan. I really feel like they’re going to have to find some kind of peace with them in order for there to be a truly long-term solution to Roshar’s ills. And the Heavenly Ones- and thus Leshwi in particular, since she’s the only named Heavenly One- seem to be the most redeemable faction among the Fused.
So really I think that they’re going to have eventually start working with Leshwi, which could lead to things.
@29 Love it! I could see that happening.
I also think (like a few of you in the comments) that there’s no way Ialai is going down this easily. Shallan is getting into deep trouble, the Sons of Honor are acting stupid to pull her into the trap, and Adolin will have to rescue Shallan, therefore pulling him back into the Sadeas mess. That’s the only way I can see it playing out. The larkin in the cabinet idea is scary.
Also, Moash can be up to no good. He causes emotional pain for everyone involved, probably including Leshwi. Is he with the red light Fused? Will Kaladin have to face him in the next chapter, so early in the book? Has he been involved in any previous fights during the timeskip? There are so many questions.
I always thought Moash/Leshwi would be a thing. He kept staring at her unique skin tones and describing the color of her eyes.
If there’s going to be a Leshwi ship, my bets are on Leshash.
I’ve been reading these articles for months now, but this is my first time commenting.
About Ialai: First thought I had when Shallan walked in to that room? Ialai has a Shardblade, and she knows how to use it. Shallan/Radiant, unless she’s done a ton of training “off screen” is still very much a novice to sword play.
I’m totes on board the Navani/Sibling train. Toot toot!
Perhaps this is wild speculation: I don’t think it’s Ialai in that room.
In Chapter 4:
As has been pointed out, how would Ialai be considered the rightful Queen? Perhaps it is based on the pre-Gavilar mindset that strength rules, but we also have at least one generation of inherited rule, which no one (openly, that we know of) contested after Gavilar died. But let’s think about how inherited rule typically goes: the King dies, but his heir is too young to rule or has no heir. Rulership would go to the Queen.
Chapter 6:
Why would Brandon take such pains to not only not have the cultists confirm or mention Ialai by name, but also to make sure that we (Veil/Shallan) can’t actually see Ialai at the table? It says Ialai sits there because Veil/Shallan assumes it’s her, but we know that our POVs are never omniscient. …With the possible exception of Wit/Hoid, haha.
I posit that this shadowy cult leader is actually Aesudan. She had bonded with Yelig-Nar, but Odium said that “power consumed her” though we really can’t be sure whether that means she’s dead. After all, Amaram didn’t die because he bonded Yelig-Nar, he died because Rock shot him with an arrow. Perhaps she re-bonded Yelig-Nar, perhaps she bonded another Unmade (Ashertmarn? We only know it retreated from Shallan and Sja-Anat, but not why or where), perhaps the power that consumed her was her bonding a Voidspren after Yelig-Nar’s bond corrupted her irreversibly? RAFO, I suppose!
Even if it turns out not to be Aesudan, I still think it isn’t Ialai. Team Radiant assumes that Ialai took over the cult, but they don’t actually know for sure, hence the Shallan/Veil/Radiant Black Ops mission.
Speaking of Shallan, I personally don’t have an issue with the way her alters are taking point here. Remember that we’re only 6 chapters in and that in previous books, Shallan was doing the same thing in certain scenes. The difference here is that she and her alters are working together because of the balance they achieved in the time jump.
We also have to remember that just because Shallan finally acknowledged what happened with her mother, she still hasn’t actually dealt with it. The trauma that made Shallan create personas for herself to deal with her perceived inability to overcome her weaknesses is still a looming cloud for her.
I think that one of Shallan’s Truths (perhaps even the final one) will be that she will acknowledge that Veil and Radiant are just versions of herself, after which she’ll no longer have alters and all of the traits that Veil and Radiant possess will be Shallan’s.
And I don’t mean to be a downer, but when people say that they “hate” Veil or Radiant, it makes me a little sad. Veil and Radiant are Shallan. Shallan’s just too broken right now to do what she knows must be done without building these personas as a scaffold to support her. As a traumatized individual, she can’t believe herself capable of the things Veil and Radiant can do, so she must use them as crutches until she can make herself whole again. And I don’t mean “crutch” disparagingly. If you break your leg, you need a cast and a crutch until you can walk on your own. It’s when that crutch is used after healing that it’s a bad thing.
It’s going to be at least as hard for Shallan to truly admit that her alters are simply her as it will be for Kaladin to admit that sometimes he has to accept that the people he is responsible for will die, that it’s not his fault, and, to take it a step further, someday will have to send someone else to do a thing knowing that it’s a suicide run and that he is intentionally sending a friend and comrade to die.
We’re still ages away from any Knight Radiant swearing the top level Ideals. It’s a long road to end of this story. Journey before Destination, Radiants.
Looney theory time: Veil is planning not just to kill Ialai, but to replace her. We do see some inclination in that direction during OB.
Kaladin may not have told anyone about Moash, but there were others who saw him kill Elhokar and wouldn’t keep it secret.
Re: Moash
If I remember correctly, it was after the first assassination attempt that Kaladin kept Moash’s involvement a secret. As @43 said, there were too many others around when he actually succeeded in killing Elhokar, so there’s no way that he could have hid that.
I believe that Kaladin still held out hope for Moash to return to the fold, so to speak, after the assassination attempt in the war camp palace. By keeping his involvement a secret, Moash could have returned to them with fewer questions asked. After Moash actually killed Elhokar? Even Kaladin would understand that door was closed, so no need to keep bridges in place (pun intended.)
I think there is some story to the 2 prisoners, its mentioned a couple of times (I think) and then the angry Fused also goes there to attack the civilians.
New theory Kaladin faces Moash several times, is conflicted while fighting him but realizing that although moash was once his friend he can’t save everyone and defeats him while leveling up
With Moash on the scene, Roshone’s days may be numbered.
A thought…..
I think that some parsendi might help the human in future but i was not thinking a fuse might help as they worship odium but now after reading this chapter i think that the windrunner section of the pardendi called the heavenly ones might change side or maybe they are just little more considerate than other fuse.
And here’s another thought but maybe it is too much.. i think that there gonna be relationship between a human and a parsendi. Maybe.
While Alice is undoubtedly brilliant, it should be pointed out that this is a direct quote from a movie. (I think she loves slipping in these things and seeing how many people notice. She’s done it (at least) twice with the same quote from Babylon 5, for example.)
First thought, before reading anything further than the epigraph, when seeing that different metals affect the spren in unique ways:
Fabrials are Allomancy!
Highly inaccurate. But the crossover potential for Fabrial tech and Allomancy has just blown my mind.
I am honestly shocked by all the Kalwi shippers. Not because I oppose it, necessarily, but because I can’t forget Leshwi being the Fused to recognize Moash’s “potential” and to nurture his turn towards supporting Odium’s cause. I agree that it is nice to see the Heavenly Ones being honorable in regards to following a code of battle, but I am of the apparently minority opinion that Leshwi is just playing a long game here. She may be drawn to Kaladin and enjoy fighting with him, but I think her primary goal is to get Kaladin to trust her and/or focus on her so that she can break him at some point with Moash. I am not sure exactly how this would play out, but we see her showing understanding of how Kaladin feels when he loses those he considers to be under his protection. She knows what Moash has done and even gave him his blade if I am not mistaken, so she is in my mind a patron or mentor of sorts for him. I think she is hoping to use Moash to send Kaladin into an emotional tailspin severe enough to neutralize him as a threat or to convert him to her side (unlikely, but either of those options would deal a massive blow to the Windrunners).
@29 Brin – I am with you. I love Navani and really hope she gets to bond the Sibling and take her place as a leader in her own right, not just seen as powerful because of her powerful husband. She talked about being obsolete after Gavilar’s death, then returned to the forefront of power with her courtship and marriage of Dalinar. Navani is so awesome in her own right. I am happy she is happy with Dalinar (and relationships are a wonderful and important part of life), but I want to see her get more recognition just for her own talents and knowledge.
@41 jamesthelass – I agree with you about Shallan, too. I have always loved Shallan and am really hoping that one of her truths will be uniting her personalities. I think they are all valuable and that Veil and Radiant, when toned down and integrated, would be much more “fun” to read.
I am not stressed about the POV characters so far. I have always enjoyed all the POVs, so I trust Brandon to give me many awesome POVs throughout the book. Selfishly I am hoping for more Adolin and Shallan just because I love their relationship, but I am happy to read whatever is written. :)
My big question coming from the chapters is this: Why was Leshwi bleeding? Syl, blade or spear, should not leave bleeding cuts. SO why was she bleeding after Kal stabbed her?
Is that a typo artifact that will be caught and fixed in Copy-edits? Or is something else going on?
More reflections now that I’ve read our rereaders comments:
Leshwi’s actions here have me reviewing the Heavenly Ones’ refusal to murder Jezrien at the end of Oathbringer in a different light. Maybe they saw no honor in cold bloodedly stabbing someone who was likely one of their greatest adversaries. They likely had dueled Jezrien in the air dozens of times; likely with each encounter being a battle of honor and respect. After millennia of having that type of relationship, it makes more sense why they were not celebrating Moash’s/Vyre’s murder of Jezrien. #noredemption #vyrecanburninthefire
Lyndsey’s Kal/Leshwi ship – I wouldn’t be surprised if that doesn’t become a popular ship (pending future results in RoW). Honestly, I prefer that one over the weird Kal/Syl one (she’s like his adorable little sister, folks!) Also, although I think Kal and Lyn would be kinda cute, I’m with Lyndsey in not being a fan of that particular ship.
Renarin and his corrupted spren are “common” knowledge (at least among the Kholins) and I think that is a good thing. There were already too many secrets in that family, it’s good that they’re open about as much as possible.
As for Renarin and his different use of Illusion powers: let’s not forget that early in OB (the scene where Renarin heals Adolin’s wrist) he was able to send Adolin an image of a perfected version of Adolin, the man he could be. I still think this is linked to Renarin’s use of Illusion; whereas Shallan inspires via drawing her perception of one’s ideal self, Renarin can show you internally your own perception of your ideal self. Hoping we find out more about this in RoW
As soon as I read, “Today Veil intended to assassinate Ialai Sadeas,” I was pretty sure that that is NOT what is going to happen. We’ll see.
@51 Evelina: You were the first to hit on the point that before Kaladin was Leshwi’s man, Moash was. I believe she recruited Moash to kill Jezerien, and gave Moash the Honorblade. So, already any potential Kalwi Ship has a third wheel. (Uh, rudder? Not really sure how that works. My teenager had to explain Shipping to me recently.)
I will say this; that Venli becoming a Radiant is just the first of what I think will be a lot of necessary crossover, or Uniting of humans and Parshendi. Maybe Leshwi/Kaladin is part of this, perhaps Rlain, perhaps Saja-Anat; perhaps all of that. But I think the ultimate endgame will be uniting ALL Rosharians against Odium.
Just an agreement to remember that this is only Chapter 6 of a plus 100+ book. I like that the writing is very tight and focused here at the beginning. Definitely helps with the tension, pacing, and some very cool action.
Apropos to nothing, but I just watched a great movie this weekend called Greyhound about a WWII sea battle. It authentically portrayed the workings of a WWII battleship, and how key personnel are not in one place and they communicate via radios, signals, whistles, etc. It reminds me how Fourth Bridge works by communicated to various parts of the “ship” via spanreed. The Bridge is in Alethkar, Navigation is in Irithiru, and Engineering is on the Shattered Plans; but it all runs through exact non-present communications. Just a cool RW analogy imo.
Sorry, big aside there…
The idea that Navani will bond the Sibling is neat, but like last week, I still think it is too on the nose for the wife of our only Bondsmith. That doesn’t mean she won’t be the one to ultimately figure out how to get the tower working again, and perhaps “awakening” the Sibling, but I don’t think she’ll also become a Bondsmith Radiant.
Standard excuses for my rambling, but thanks everyone. I really enjoy everyone’s comments!
Great notes, everyone. I always enjoy reading the speculations here, even if I don’t agree with them :)
I’m not on the Leshwi/Kal ship myself… it seems to be interaction of a different sort. Besides, Kal is clearly WAY too damaged for even a traditional relationship right now, much less ready to face or embrace the hardships and emotional challenges that would come along with dating a Fused.
I’m all for the Shallan arc. Not sure what is so irritating about the personality switching, as they all lead back to her. We will no doubt see her develop further into a more unified persona, but until then, we get to see ALL of her aspects wading into deep trouble. Fun!
I have no doubt that we’ll see Dalinar, Adolin, and Jasnah POVs, just have to wrap up the housecleaning from the skip. It is nice to see the end result of all the effort that went into the Fourth Bridge, rather than having to experience the details of the struggle to make it work. I’m sure we’ll see more cool stuff that will enrich this story as a result of the off camera time.
Looking forward to more!
I’m of the opinion that the honorable combat between the Heavenly One’s and the Windrunners is foreshadowing an order of the Fused leaving Odium’s service, just like the Skybreakers have sided with Odium. If that set of events did play out, then I could definitely see the Kaladin – Leshwi pairing being valid. I also found it interesting that Rushu was mentioned again. I’m guessing she’ll progressively become a more important character, possibly a future romantic interest for Kaladin (Navani does note she seems to be interested in him) or Renarin (I think they would get along well on the intellectual level.)
@58: I read your post and had an “Oh, snap!” moment. That actually makes a lot of sense. Kind of the physical law of “for every action, there’s an opposite and equal reaction. I really felt like when Leshwi saw that new fused at the end of the chapter that is was clear she does NOT approve of it at all. Some of the more sane fused could definitely be seeing changes that they don’t care for, which could lead to defections.
Another thought I had, which is out there, but: What if that new fused IS Moash? (Or, was, but now taken over by something else?)
I have a bit more time. So, this week’s chapters highlighted just how much more captivating I personally found the Shallan narrative than the Kaladin one, despite my statements on missing Shallan as Shallan as opposed to Veil. Her narrative remains pretty engaging and is the one narrative I am eager to read week after week. I enjoyed Navani’s chapter, I do think something will happen with Rushu though I am not sure what exactly. I do think Navani is a proto-Radiant yet to be uncovered, that much was very predictable once we found out she was the main character of RoW. I also liked seeing Renarin, what he was up to, and finding out there are more Truthwatchers. I thought Sanderson found a neat way to keep track with various side-narratives he obviously will not be spending much time on until much later in the series such as Renarin’s corrupted spren. Yes, everyone knows, no, no one really knows what to do with it, all chose to just go along with it since it was inevitable.
Now, what I liked less was… unsurprisingly the Kaladin part. So… this is the third week in a row where we read a “Kaladin lashes in the air to fight Fused and/or Leshwi” narrative. I mean, I get Kaladin is a very central character, but knowing chapters 7-8 will have more of the same, I am starting to feel this narrative is dragging. I agree with the above comments on having had three books with Kaladin being the central character of one of the most central characters. I feel we have spent so much time with him, there is just nothing new under the sun when it comes to his narrative: he has no hidden layer, nor additional depth. While I never expected his character to lose his importance, I did not expect RoW to focus so much on him. Moreover, I don’t feel it should since what we read was, in my personal opinion, more of the same. This week’s entire Kaladin viewpoint was, IMHO, superfluous. It added nothing nor brought no perspective I thought had much value to read. Navani brought something, Shallan brought something, Kaladin? He has become the viewpoint I dread reading because, so far, apart from the insights on Bridge 4, which I enjoyed reading, he hasn’t earned the focus he is getting.
I’ll respond to some comments, in a general manner. Yeah. I am aware this is only chapter 6 and there is plenty of time for favorite characters to make an apparition. I was however expecting Adolin to be there this week, even if through Shallan’s viewpoint (or Veil or whatever). Hence, not seeing him after being teased for two weeks was a bit disheartening. I don’t really mind it *that* much if the character has a decent narrative to come, I will not care one bit over this, but boiled cat fears hot water. The one element I have been hanging onto to rescue the disastrous aftermath of Sadeas’s death, back in OB, was Sanderson stating he was not done with it. What bothered me, this week was Veil claiming her goal was to assassinate Ialai. I made me fear Sanderson would do it again. He would have the Sadeas’s death be above every single character except… Adolin and that bothers me immensely. I care a lot about this narrative, I do not want to see it end with Veil killing Ialai, the Sons of Honor disappearing, and Adolin just showing up to grin.
I really like the theory Ialai has a larkin and is trying to snare Shallan. I think I would enjoy reading this. I don’t really want Adolin to save the day though, I want him to suffer consequences. Real consequences. Ones that hurt. Not just “Shallan is captured”. Something… bigger. Whatever it may be.
@34: Isilel. The Sons of Honor would be rather unthreatening if they didn’t have a way to capture a Shardbearer. I can think of several ways to capture and to detain one, I cannot believe this organization would be undone by a mere Shardbearer. If they are, then they were not worth any page time, IMHO. They’ve got to have a few tricks down their sleeves.
On Dalinar: I agree with one of the above commentaries. We spent so much time with him I do not feel there is more to uncover. It is better to focus on what he will do next and that does not necessarily require his viewpoint, though he will have them, just not now. Still, I would have easily traded one Kaladin viewpoint for one Dalinar viewpoint on the same scene. It would have been less of the same, it would have been refreshing and I would have enjoyed reading it more.
My first thought was worry that Navani might try to go after Moash herself! That would be bad but then I realised she isn’t in a position to do that.I agree with whoever said things are looking bad for Roshone and where is our Edgedancer if the new Fused is at the manor? Who were those prisoners?
I can’t see Veil pulling off an asassination. She can’t exactly kill Ialai in front of her soldiers. I also worry that Ialai could be bonded or close to it with a Voidspren.
@52 – Nice Catch! She should NOT be bleeding from a Sylcut.
The Heavenly Ones are the counterparts to Windrunners, so it makes sense they play ball with honorable combat and general attitudes. Other orders of Fused are quite different, as we’ve seen–Kal would probably be quite miffed at Skybreaker or Dustbringer methods.
One thing I want to toss in–I believe the singers predate Honor and Cultivation taking residence. They’ve undoubtably grown around the shards being present, but their origins are, IIRC, Adonalsium.
(First order of business: Finally took the Knight Radiant survey, and it was sort of inconclusive… 72% Windrunner, 71% Willshaper and 70% Elsecaller. Yes, looks like I am gonna be the first Radiant to have 3 spren!!! LOL )
1/ Shallan
If anything has become clear in a Sanderson novel, what you might think at first glance is likely not what you think is actually going on.
One of 2 things will occur. The first is that is not Ialai, but some sort of trap given that Shallan (suspiciously) kept asking about Ialai, just before the group was interrupted / discovered by Adolin. I believe they took Shallan to someone who can expose who she really is, and I suspect, that person will be someone we know (and it will be surprising).
The other more logical thing to occur is that Ialai will share information with Shallan, which will force her to hold back any assassination until she discovers / looks into it more. Much like the Ghostbloods, she will end up proving herself to them and then join the Sons of Honour…. While I believe she will remain true to team Dalinar, I also believe her different personalities allows her to have some level of allegiance to these other organizations (whether believing to help team Dalinar or for more personal gains).
2/ Kaladin / Leshwi
I don’t ship that.
I think Leshwi is finally excited to have a worthy opponent. Kaladin is basically her play thing.
Furthermore, I don’t think Leshwi inherently has a problem with attacking civilians, however, I think her objection partially stems from the way the other Fused are going about it. I believe she is using that objection to further lure Kaladin into some form of comradery that will be used in setting Kaladin up in a confrontation with Moash – either to crush Kaladin or attempt to convert him over to Team Odium (ie – Moash:”Hey Kal, see how cool team Odium can be, they are honourable and not all bad! Come hang out with us!”).
@49 RE: Babbling, Bumbling Band of Baboons
That is a quote by McGonagall in the Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, when she is about to teach the students how to dance in preparation for for the Yule Ball.
Might have also been used elsewhere, not sure.
Definitely an issue with the Kaladin-Leshwi fight. Have read through it three times now – her wounds are referenced to be bleeding cuts, twice. But the only injuries she sustains are delivered by the Sylblade or Sylspear.
If the wounds were leaking voidlight as the healed, or bleeding voidlight, that would make sense. But they are written as just plain bleeding, which should not happen. I’m hoping that can be fixed in copy-edits, or explained by one of the beta readers.
@Alice @lyndsey – any insight to share?
@60:
This is my issue with this type of release. I actually didn’t read the OB release chapters as I didn’t want to read it piecemeal. I wanted to sit down with the book and read through it. You had two weeks of teasing, as you say. But this wouldn’t happen if you had the book! There’s no intentional teasing as it is not meant to be read like this.
On the Fused switching sides. It’s been said before that the Heavenly ones don’t need to renew their voidlight to fly. If I recall correctly, they only use it up to heal wounds. If this is the case, where does the power to fly come from? If the Fused switch sides, not only do I doubt they’d be reborn as Odium likely wouldn’t give them a new body, but would the Heavenly ones still be able to fly or access voidlight at all? Or would they become more like Venli? Having to bond a Spren for their powers?
Also, I doubt Shallan/Veil will assassinate Ialai right of the bat. I feel like she will be a bigger part of part 1. If she gets killed at the beginning, it would feel rushed in my opinion. I’m expecting it to be more like the unmade in Urithiru as far as how long it takes to work out. I think Ialai will be either dead or imprisoned by the end of part 1 of the book.
As for view point character, I’m just enjoying what I’m given. I enjoy almost all POV’s though some are a bit more dry upon rereads. I’ve personally always enjoyed Kaladin chapters and I’m glad to see he’s gotten better with his powers. I’m looking forward to all the other characters we’ll see in future chapters, but seeing as it’s only chapter 6, it’s not surprising we haven’t seen many.
On a different note. There was a one year time jump between books, correct? I have a few questions about that. Has the weeping just recently passed? Or is it coming up soon? Also, was it a Rosharian year or earth year? I suspect it’s been a Rosharian year which is 500 days. If a pregnancy on Roshar lasts just as long as it does on earth, is it too much to hope for a Adolin/Shallan baby? It’s possible, considering they got married almost 17 earth months since we last saw them. While getting pregnant is one of the last things Shallan would want to do during the desolations, it is possible.
And since when could they travel to Shadesmere with the Oathgates? I thought they were locked and team Kholinar only got sent there because the Spren were corrupted.
That’s all from me for this week tho.
@62
That’s an intriguing thought about singers existing pre-shard. We know there were some civilizations on other systems prior to the arrival of a shard, and we only know when the humans arrived on Roshar, not any other species. We also have been at least teased with the possibility that shards are not the only source of investiture, though it is unclear whether that means Adonalsium as a whole or some other source.
Cultivation is given credit for the species on Roshar that have developed sapience. Combined with the gemhearts, which we see in most of the species with a carapace, it does support the possibility of pre-shard existence of those species. It does not explain, though, why other creatures with gemhearts have not developed sapience despite having an equal amount of time under the influence of Cultivation. It also doesn’t quite explain their unique ability to alter forms. (Obviously unique with the exception of the Aimians, which seem to be their own thing)
Another thing to consider is that their religion seems to be closely tied to shards, which has not been the case with other pre-shard species that we’ve seen. That could be a matter of conversion based on some tremendous event, such as happened with Harmony, or it could be that they’ve only ever know “shard worship”, for lack of a better term.
It should be interesting to find out more as RoW progresses.
@29: agreed, I said pretty much the same thing, might have been a couple weeks ago. Though I’m not COMPLETELY sure it’ll be Navani who does it though she certainly is the OBVIOUS candidate . Just thought of a good replacement candidate, though. Rushu, if she can keep her head out of the clouds long enough.
Regards,
Ben M.
I do not trust Leshwi. Has everyone forgotten that she RECRUITED Moash?! Now I hated Moash before he met Leshwi. But it takes a kind of twisted person to look at the Moash and think “Ah yes, I can use you.” Moash is so devastating because he knows how to manipulate Kaladin’s sense of honor. I’m inclined to think Leshwi doing the same thing on a bigger scale. I don’t think 1 on 1 fighting is as honorable as Kal thinks. Its a trap!
It lulls the windrunners into complacency. Allowing for more types of fuzed to be reborn in the everstorm. True if they kill a fused they’ll be reborn. But if they don’t kill a fused a different fused will be reborn.
If x is the number of parshmen offered to their gods each everstorm
y is the number of fused killed in battle and
z is the number of newly arriving fused. Then if
y>x or y=x then z will not get any bodies, or they will and a number of y will be left floating around.
Only if y<x can z continue to increase over time. This is Leshwi’s tactic, and Kaladin is falling for it.
The thing I love about these books is how there is no clear cut line between “us” and “them.” The sides are ambiguous and the ethics of specific characters and groups can be argued as right or wrong. Before starting these preview chapters, I was certain that all Fused were bad. Singers were ambiguous with the potential to be good, but all Fused were definitely the bad guys snatching Singer bodies and intent on wiping out all humanity. After these six chapters I am no longer sure about that. I suppose it’s possible that Leshwi and the other Heavenly Ones are tricking Kaladin and the Windrunners in some way, preying on their honor and trying to win their trust. But I hope that’s not the case. I would love to see some Fused turn away from Odium, in the same way Nale and some Skybreakers have turned towards Odium. As others have mentioned, the Singers were on Roshar pre-Odium, and Honor and Cultivation were once their gods. Perhaps Leshwi and these other Fused were alive at that time and recall those peaceful days. Maybe they were the ones who welcomed humans when they first arrived on Roshar and are interesting in rekindling that coexistence. It will be interesting to see how it develops and how the sides continue to fluctuate.
@65: Austin. I agree! I will admit I consider not reading the preview chapter for this reason. As I mentioned, if Adolin later has a really great narrative, I will NOT care I had not seen him this week, but the piece-wise release… It makes me overly bored with Kaladin and wishing we spent more time with the narrative I find more engaging, Shallan, and yeah, a some point in time, Adolin.
I agree none of this would be an issue if I had the book! Now, I am annoyed because I *know* the next chapters are Kaladin chapters, *again*. If I had the book, I would just read ahead until I reach the part I want to read… and go back to read what I missed.
@66: Storm. I think if Shallan had had a baby, it would have been mentioned. I personally have no issue with the time skip. It seems to have resulted in us skipping a lot of boring parts, so I am totally fine with it.
On the side notes, I hope Veil does not assassinate Ialai. I want her to play a bigger role and I want her available to deliver consequences to Adolin. That cannot happen if she dies next week.
Wow. Ialai is sure direct. Assuming, of course that Ialai ordered the assassination and not someone else (as Lyndsey and Alice note in their commentary, Jasnah, perhaps?) Thanadal dead and Vamah gone into the wind. I would not be surprised if his now mangled body is hidden deep down in a chasm. I doubt that Ialai would have allowed her agents to have Vamah escape cleanly. Sends the wrong message. I wonder who Thanadal’s successor and if he is now at Urithiru. Same question for Vamah’s successor if Vamah’s location is not known. What happened to Bethab and Ruthar? To my knowledge, neither Highprince or their followers moved to Urithiru.
There is a bit of Skybreaker and Windbreaker in Radiant. Both the archetypal Skybreaker and Windrunner would try to arrest Ialai. I agree with Veil – best to kill her and pull that thorn out of the garden. Although I think killing Ialai will be harder than Veil hopes/thinks.
How many people know that Glys (Renarin’s spren) was corrupted? We also have some other Truthwatchers.
I am also glad that someone revealed Moash’s treachery. I do not recall that the other two members of Bridge 4 who went on the Kholinar with Kaladin saw Moash kill Elhokar. If I am correct, then I wonder what convinced Kaladin to reveal that Moash killed Elhokar. It would not surprise me to learn that Kaladin waited until Moash was seen by other members of Bridge 4 and demanded Kaladin tell the full story. As of the end of OB, I think Kaladin still hoped that Moash could be redeemed.
The Heavenly Ones have a sense of honor of their own. Very much like the Windrunners. So much honor that Leshwi did not approve of Kaladin’s new enemy. I wonder if this Fused has some connection with Moash.
Not that anyone cares, I am an Eslecaller (per the Radiant quiz).
Lyndsey. Ialai orchestrated the assassination attempt on Dalinar out on the Shattered Plains: the one where Kaladin and Shallan fell into the chasms. A lot of people died when the assassin released the bridge. Ialai does have much direct blood on her hands. It is close to the line, but I think killing Ialai is justified. She is an enemy of Team Honor. She and the remainder of House Sadeas and SoH implicitly, if not explicitly, are at war with Team Honor. Thus, I see the killing Ialai (rather than capturing her) as a battle raid. I am sure others will disagree (including some KR Orders).
Lyndsey and Alice: I think the sound that Navani hears when Dalinar becomes a portable recharger and the feeling that Rushu was falling into eternity when she viewed Dalinar has to do with Dalinar accessing the Spiritual Realm. The perpendicularity connects all three Realms. None of the Rosharian’s has any connection to the Spiritual Realm.
Another guess. I think the Ars Arcanum section in RoW will have a discussion of Dalinar’s recharger abilities. Something like that would fascinate the author of the Ars Arcanum (I cannot think of her name). Question for Beta Readers. As part of the Beta read, does Brandon send you the Ars Arcanum for the book? Or is that something you only read once you buy the final book?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Edited to fix the error which Nutty Professor @75 caught. Thank you.
Back again and I’ve caught another typo: “He’d could now execute such a maneuver.” Should be ‘he could’.
Can’t wait till we get back to the politics! One of the Edgedancers has gotta be Lift, right?
@73. One of the earlier chapters has a Navani perspective where she sees an gangly girl among the Edgedancers who had grown about a foot in the last (whatever time period). I’m pretty sure that’s Lift, and that she’s there.
I have really enjoyed reading these comments and comments on previous articles about SA. A lot of you have really awesome perspectives on things. They don’t always pan out, but they really are great ideas. You’ve also helped me catch things I missed. So I thank you, and look forward to reading more of your perspectives!
@72 AndrewHB. Windbreaker?? Do you mean windrunner?
I’m one those who is not for the Kaladin Leshwi romance. I see it as more as two fighters who respect each other. I can see it as a manipulation attempt by her towards Kaladin.
I don’t see or want the Moash redemption arc. I can see the Sanderson may be up to something with him though. He was described as all in black, toobad guy typical for Sanderson I think.
@73. Here’s the exact text I was think about that references Lift. It’s in chapter 3.
“The last Edgedancer in the group—a lanky girl who seemed to have grown an entire foot in the last year—missed her jump though, and tripped over a large rock the others had dodged. Navani covered a smile. Being Radiant did not, unfortunately, make one immune to the awkwardness of puberty.”
I also remember reading an excerpt somewhere that was a Lift POV. It’s supposed to be in Rhythm of War at some point. (Don’t think that’s a spoiler?)
Here is a wish I have. During the year between end of OB and now, Jusha gets tired of Urithiru and leaves. He eventually gets involved in the underworld activity on the Shattered Plains and becomes involved in the SoH. Shallan will have to kill him in order to save Red (who is discovered to be a spy). Will Shallan be able to do so? In my opinion, this would be a good plot.
Notom @2. The reason you get a lot of Veil front and center Shallan is undertaking a spy mission. Spying is something that Shallan has designated for the Veil persona. When necessary, Shallan has her Shallan persona take control – for example, when the SoH are taking Shallan through the the underground passage.
Shallan believes that for her to function day-in-day out, she had to create two other personas: Veil and Radiant. The three personas (Shallan, Veil and Radiant) are now so integrated that they compliment each other. In OB, her personas (primarily Veil, as Radiant was not very well developed) attempted to take over the entire person. There were times when the “Veil” persona would try to decide who the “real Shallan” she romantically pursue and trying to draw. Most people may not think this is a good thing. However, they do not have multiple personalities/DID. Shallan does; and integrating her 3 personas is what she needs to do to manage her DID.
@many. It appears I am in the minority. I would prefer that Shallan not somehow get rid of her DID. I do not see it as a negative. I think it is a good thing a series/book has a protagonist who is able to enjoy her life and function like anyone else who has DID with multiple personas.
Zee @7. Not sure why. But I hope Rlain does not became a Windrunner. I would rather him be a Bondsmith and bound the Sibling. I do not think Rlain would be someone who would bond the Nightwatcher. I see that as someone more associated with Cultivation (a Horneater, perhaps?) and not a Listener or Singer.
Bridge4kufer @23. Well said.
Brin @29. Your theory makes sense to me. The one problem, however, is that I see Navani as Dustbringer rather than a Bondsmith. Navani is someone who likes to tinker with things and see how the thing’s internal parts work. Per Brandon’s descriptions of the Orders on his web site, this characteristic is common to many Dustbringers.
Isilel @34. Do we know if the Fused can use their Surges while wearing ShardPlate and using a ShardBlade. The Knights Radiant could not lash a Knight who was wearing his/her Plate (granted that was a living spren). I thought I remember Szeth thinking that he could not lash someone who was wearing a dead-ShardPlate (but I could be wrong).
KiManiak @35 and others. Count me against a Kaladin/Leshwi relationship (or ship if I want to be hip). I do not think we need a West Side Story/Romeo & Juliet angle – enemies become lovers. Maybe Brandon would be able to effectively pull of this plot if he wanted. Yet, I see this idea as bad fan faction. Sorry Team Kalwi.
El Cochino @40. A year has gone by since the end of OB. That is enough time for Shallan to train. I doubt Ialai has much, if any training, using a ShardBlade herself. I see her as a traditional Vorin – only doing female activities. Devious yes; vicious yes; but, in my opinion, not a fighter in the warrior sense.
John @47. I like the theory that Moash will kill Roshone. Query. Will Maosh claim that he is doing it as a favor for Kaladin (as justice for all the pain that Roshone has caused) or will he claim it is further revenge for what happened to his grandparents? If the former, then it will help Kaladin realize that Moash is beyond salvaging/redeeming. I am one of those who believes that Kaladin believes that Moash can still be redeemed. (This is different from my personal viewpoint on Moash – Moash is beyond redemption and needs to be killed in the same way a rabid animal needs to be killed.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I think it’s really interesting that Leshwi so clearly disapproves of red-light Fused’s actions. Maybe the Fused aren’t all one big happy family.
Leshwi’s attitude toward Kaladin, where she seems to enjoy fighting with him and to respect him as an opponent, reminded me very strongly of the Star Trek: TNG episode with the clone of Kahless (the ancient leader who taught the Klingons the way of honor). He makes this speech to a bunch of Klingons who are watching him fight Worf that goes something like: “Is there nothing but anger and bloodlust in your hearts? Look at us: two warriors, locked in combat, fighting for honor! How can you not sing with joy for all to hear? We are Klingons!” The Heavenly Ones feel like they have a similar Honorable Warrior Race Dudes (and Dudettes!) vibe going on. “We are Singers!”
Ugh, Moash. When Navani was trying to get Rushu to focus, I was like, “No! Listen to her!” It reminded me of horror stories where a kid will notice something ominous and their parents dismiss it as their imagination until it’s too late.
I came out as an Edgedancer in that quiz.
1. The SoH members previously mentioned to Shallan that they had someone close to Dalinar. Do you think that could be Rushu? She seems to be overly fascinated with the Windrunners.
2. The Fused seem similar to the some of the Heralds in that they have gone quite mad.
3. I’m thinking that Kaladin is about to take take his next vows in helping these prisoners, but it is going to cost him dearly. Whether that be one of the Windrunners, someone from his family, or a near death experience makes form the plate.
I can’t believe Ialai Sadeas is still a thing. How many betrayals have to happen before Jasnah and the Kingdom of Kholinar move against her. Its clearly suggested that she murdered a high prince. She is plotting against Jasnah and Dalinar. Her army scummed to Odium and turned on their allies. Enough is enough. New high prince. Break up the army and retrain it, disband it, or integrate it in parts of the rest of the armies. We can’t afford internal dissension of this level for years on end.
I expect Shallan will emerge more once the current infiltration is over.
The different behavior of the Fused makes me wonder if they have any correspondence to the Knights Radiant oaths. Like each type of Fused is tied to an emotion. Its possible they are not since the Oaths were imposed by Ishar to govern their power. And the Fused aren’t tied to a Spren with a nature that has to be acknowledged. Instead they are infused with Odiums raw emotional Investiture, but this Investiture is specific enough to give Fused a single power. Perhaps each version of Fused isn’t just a surge but an emotion. Will be looking for hints going forward and hoping that we can include some of the sane Fused in a peace deal along with the Singers.
@20
i cant fight the quote right now, but Dalinars pov will be delivered in later parts of the books, because it would spoil too much rn
I’ll be curious to see Moash in action. The text shows he has saccess to Stormlight through Jezrien’s Honor Blade. This will make Dalinar’s perpendicularity trick a double edged sword.
Ooh, I cannot wait to read on!
I do miss Dalinars POV. It gave everything a bit more gravitas I felt but it’s too early to say anything at this point. I’m excited to see which other characters POV we get to hear this time. (More Kaldin (yess!) and a tiny bit less descriptive fighting (just a bit))
I’m not a fan of the Veil and Radiant personas. The back and forth (the DID in general really) is a bit off-putting and tbh I’m not all that interested in hearing from them.
I’m also not a huge fan of Navani – I’m sorry _/(“^”)\_ I know quite a few people sympathise with her after the prologue but she does..admit to being only “a patron” and quite useless herself (other than that oneeee essay). The only reason she’s important enough to ‘direct’ talented engineers to work on thing that ‘excite’ her (not cute btw) is because she keeps marrying men in power which makes her very hard to like.
Who I am hoping to hear more from is Rysn!! (Anyone ship her with Kaladin yet? I know they haven’t met yet but BUT SHE’S SO INTERESTING!) A bit down now because of what happened to her and her limitations but she definitely got her spark back while fighting the thief in the vault in OB. She’s got a ship now and wouldn’t it be great if she bonded a spren and healed? She’s independent (doesn’t want to ‘land’ (*cough* Navani *cough* Shallan) anyone important, isn’t tied down with responsibilities/oaths like everyone else) – which is nice. She’s driven and adventurous as well as and almost most importantly (unlike Jasnah who is also awesome but less relatable) imperfect – like Kaladin *grins*). I really hope she becomes a more prominent character. And not just because I can’t see Kalwi happening *frowns at that thought*.
And speaking of interesting interlude-characters who I want to hear more from – where did the Aimian studying spren go? He was on the Reshi island for a bit with Rysn but then we never heard from him again. He was really memorable.
On the matter of my earlier comment on this chapter being “yet another Kaladin fighting scene” and it perhaps being superfluous, well I have just read Sanderson annotations on the chapter. Turns out he agrees and he very nearly removed the scene. He chose to keep it and to trim it, but was still not sure he made the right call. He still thinks he should have perhaps removed it. Hence I was not wrong to feel the way I did this week. The author agrees!
I was glad to read this today because I felt the too many Kaladin fighting scenes were off to not a super strong start in RoW. Hopefully we are done with those and the story can start.
I also agree with @83 Violaxx. Navani’s great genius seems to attach herself to poweful men thus ensuring others will do what she wants. It backfired against her with Gavilar, but it is hard not to read her under this light.
The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that both Shallan and Kaladin are being tricked.
In OB Leshwi’s group didn’t have any problems with ambushing and killing Graves’ party without giving them any opportunity to fight back. Moash was only taken prisoner because the other Fused believed that Leshwi would want to take elaborate revenge on him – or so she said. She carefully steered Moash into Odium’s service, approved of his desire for vengeance and shared the Fused’ own wishes for the same. She lied about the singers voluntarily sacrificing their bodies, so that the Fused could be reborn, when we saw in Venli’s PoV that at least some, if not all, of the bodies came from the Listeners who were deceived into providing them. The heavenly Ones were party to forcing Venli to lie to the newly awakened singers. They ganged up on Kaladin in Shadesmar and destroyed Captain Ico’s ship. Captain Notum expected them to torture his crew. In the battle of Thaylenah Odium was in direct command, so I don’t hold it against them, but all the rest is reason enough to doubt their current sincerity.
Now, Kaladin is unaware of most of this, but we, the readers, can’t be so gullible. Leshwi appears to be something of a talent scout for Odium’s side and IMHO she is currently subtly trying to recruit Kaladin and to make the Windrunners doubt their place in the war. All this chivalric duelling ensures that the Windrunners are going to be unprepared when the time for an all-out assault on them comes too. I expect the other shoe to drop either in Kaladin’s own chapters or in Venli’s, because the Fused would have less reason to dissemble in front of her. That is not to say that the heavenly Ones don’t have some affinity to honor, but it isn’t nearly as strong as the front that they currently project for Kaladin et al., IMHO. And their lust for revenge is much stronger – that’s why they are still around, after all.
“They just want their land back” doesn’t fly, because in the historical fragments studied by Jasnah in WoK it was mentioned that the singers of the time tended to live peacefully alongside humans until the Desolations came. While changing sides, even for the Fused, might happen, I don’t expect it to happen so early and easily. The new singers and surviving listeners would have to go first and in enough numbers to make some of the Fused re-evaluate their mission, methinks.
I find it interesting that Shallan now knows that Gavilar used to be a member of SoH. Jasnah and Navani didn’t know in OB, did they? I guess, somebody had the sense to go through Amaram’s papers. But she also seems to have either forgotten or dismissed Jasnah’s characterization of Sadeas as “devious” in her notes back in WoR. He was no blowhard – apart from the little lapse that lead to his death.
It also throws a new light on Ehlokar’s predicament that the political situation was so incredibly fragile at the time of their arrival on the Shattered Plains. No wonder that he was so afraid to change the status quo in WoK.
Gepeto @60:
I don’t think that there are going to be consequences for Adolin that would satisfy you. Nobody except Ialai cares anymore. The time to make it a significant plot-line was in OB, and, well. If the shadowy presence that Shallan currenty confronts is Ialai, then it is likely that she purposefully lured Shallan in, in full knowledge of her identity and intends to go “a spouse for a spouse”. But that’s it. Adolin isn’t going to be exiled, none of his family members is going to actually die for it, and it is clear from Torol’s PoV back in WoR that the Sadeases would have gone over to Odium in any case.
My hope for Adolin in RoW is that we will get good drama around the Rathalas revelation and the Maya revival arc.
AndrewHB @77:
Renarin was able to use Progression with dead shardplate on except for his glove during the fight with Re-Shepir, so something like that could work for the Fused of certain orders too. But it occured to me since that it might hinder their access to voidlight, if they have direct feed to Odium. But burly Regals would make good tanks with shardplate, too. Shardblades alone would make the Fused an order of magnitude more deadly, though.
@81
Spoil what? I don’t understand how current POVs could spoil something.
@83
Dalinar POVs are the most enjoyable for me to read. Philosophical questions they raise is a highlight of the series.
If you missed it, Rysn will get a novella!
@85 Isilel. Yeah. Well. I do not disagree with you but seeing Ialai made me believe, for a few minutes, she would use Shallan to snatch Adolin. I do think it is a trap and part of me is foolish enough to think the endgame is Adolin, not Shallan. Ialai would not care enough about Shallan to draft an elaborate plan to catch her, but she could be using her to get close enough to take her hit on Adolin.
So even if this will lead into disappointment, I will believe, this week, Ialai is goating Adolin into foolishly land in her trap in an attempt to rescue his wife. She is playing a game. Shallan is the bait. Adolin is the catch. Crazy prediction… She will get him to surrender Maya to free his wife…. She will let Shallan go but she will keep him.
I will play with this, in my head, but I agree the time for consequences was OB.
@Gepeto: where did you find the annotations for this chapter?
@88 eagle. Go onto the Reddit thread. Each week Sanderson comments on the chapter. This week he spoke how he almost cut the Kaladin scene out and still was not sure he took the right decision. In an adaptation, he said this scene was a goner.
I liked reading it because it made me feel better over being a bit tired by the Kaladin scenes.
Edit nvm
@66 Stormlord,
I also had confusion about the Rosharan year vs our year thing (back when I was thinking it would mean that our characters are older than it appears) and the clarification is that while they have 500 days, the days are only 20 hours long. So, the year is only just a bit longer than our year in total time. They also break their year into 10 months instead of 12 so a 9 month pregnancy is definitely out. Back of the napkin calculations seems to indicate about a 6.7 Roshar month pregnancy.
For those asking how Kaladin could cut Leshwi when shardblades like Syl don’t cut flesh, Brandon commented on reddit that it was an error that was actually caught in the proofread. He gets caught up in writing sometimes and forgets that Kaladin is not using a real spear. It will be fixed before going to print.
Re Amdrew – my inner 13yo thanks you – WindBreaker made me giggle.
To those who think Navani is a chull because she acted in a culturally approved manner.
Back in the day when Gavilar was seeming idealistic and Dalinar was his leashed Axehound she was somewhat afraid of what Dalinar could become.Given how he is shown acting while just eating dinner I’m not really surprised.
I’d guess her family made the choice to back the Kholins’ in their power grab for the kingdom and sent her as a marriage propect. She chose the man who seemed safer over the one that interested her a bit more. And how old was she then, maybe 19 or 20?
Then we have Ialie who it seems was both in love with her husband and extremely intelligent. She would also have been influencing Navani back then. She and Sadeus for all their evil were still shown as being “happily’ MARRIED AND PLOTTING even by the time of OB. She likely has a very big desire to punish people for her husband being murdered and also for carrying on the quest to make House Sadeus supreme. I think she stills believes that Dalinar is responsible for Sadeus dying whether he did the deed or ordered it. I doubt she even suspects Adolin unless that is now known outside of Dalinar, Adolin and Shallan.
Stray thoughts:
*tugs braid* can now become *tugs beard*
Here’s to hoping Leshwi and Kaladin are at the center of the peace talks/truce to fight back 5’s bigger Bad.
I wonder if Moash was looking for Roshone? Does he recite his kill list every night like Arya?
I agree with 63 on Shallan, I think it would be super surprising if the person who we think is Ialai is going to be the person close to Dalinar that the SoH have.
Also, is anyone else suspicious about the “large hutch with a roll top covering its front”?
And about Shallan doing things for the Ghostbloods, I wonder what she’s done about Sja-anat, has she told them about her? Has she kept it a secret? Has she captured her? What I would do in her situation is, convince Sja-anat to my side, tell her what the Ghostbloods want, and get her to infiltrate them even more somehow.
Fused powers do seem similar to Radiant powers, but the Fused do not appear to bind Voidspren. The Singers who bind Voidspren (as opposed to the Cognitive Shadows of other Singers) have weird powers like the Stormform and the Envoyform.
@Not Quite Dead Yet Shardblade:
There is no sign in the narrative that the Fused are bound to spren. They are already Cognitive Shadows, they probably don’t need to Connect to a Cognitive being to use Investiture.
@alex:
As I have mentioned probably too many times, Moash is Kaladin’s doppleganger. Darkeyed young men who hated the lighteyes but found themselves with a Shardblade, became Kholin bodyguards, had a conflict with Elhokar, masters of spearfighting, etc.
@KiManiak:
So, a variation on (MINOR SPOILER FOR MISTBORN WHITED OUT) gold allomancy?
@goddessimho:
Why not? She has a Shardblade, and there are so few of them. One sweep with a super-long Blade (the natural shape) and they’re all dead.
@xxviolaxx:
You are taking her abusive husband’s insults at face value. She actually does a huge amount of work. Project management is not trivial compared to design engineering–ask anyone who has ever worked in fields like construction. Remember, also, that her letter to the Azish was more persuasive than Jasnah’s. She is a master organizer, something you’re dismissing as meaningless.
@Isilel
What makes you think Leshwi knows that? She doesn’t get the host body’s memories, as far as we know, and I would anticipate that current Fused-hosts were actual volunteers.
The larkin idea has merit, but a larkin would not render Shallan helpless. They don’t drain Nahel Bonds, after all.
I still don’t see why everyone wants Navani to be a Radiant. Seriously, it’s OK to have characters who aren’t demigods.
I haven’t taken the Radiant quiz, because I would not want to be one. My instinct in a war against enemy alien demigods (the Fused) would not be to become a demigod myself. It would be to invent weapons that can let ordinary people fight demigods. Apparently I’m Ranette.
@88: eagle: Here is Sanderson’s comment on chapter 6:
@86 Notum I agree. The moral questions are one of the highlights that make for a really interesting read. And yes! I am excited for the novella! I hope she still gets to play a bigger role in the main story though.
@96 Carl I did mention the essay and am not basing my opinion solely on what her husband said. Her role as “patron” has been referenced over and over again in the last books. Let’s not disagree just for the sake of disagreeing. She wouldn’t have had to organise anything (not feasts or meetings or technicians) if she hadn’t married these men. My opinion is: she’s simply not vital for most events and most of her work could have been done by any ardent or event planner. We’ve had enough insights to other people studying fabrials and spren (themselves!). And in the past she didn’t like Dalinar just “a little bit more” – she openly admitted to having married Gavilar because it was clear he was going to be King and because Dalinar was too intense. (Even though that seemed to not be a problem when he was the most influential but was “mad” and she was practically throwing herself at him). It makes her difficult to respect. And I’m generally not a fan of people who’s power and genius is almost entirely derivative. I know you respect event organisers and project managers but in a world where everyone has their own unique strengths and roles in the story (not just the people with bonds) Navani is the most insignificant and replacable.
@97 Gepeto That’s really interesting. Thanks for posting it, I couldn’t find the thread on reddit. I’m glad he feels that way about fight scenes. I said before I felt like it was just a bit too much and it’s cool to see that the Author was hesitant about overdoing it.
@98
The problem here is that if Navani was not in the position she is in, her work would not be done by “any ardent or event planner”, it simple would not be done at all because noone would have the power or responsibility to do it. I think a fitting image would be to see Navani in relation to her researchers and engineers in the same function that Steve Jobs had in the creation of Apple.
Greetings, everyone!
Missed the beginning of the reread,so am still catching up on ch2+3 comments. Thought I’d jump in ahead and share some thoughts.
First, really cool to be back again on the read-along, as with Oathbringer and seeing all the familair faces.
Now, to the books: was unsure of the one year gap, so much to cover, but, as usual, BS is pulling it off nicely. Given that we have Dalinar be a walking perpendicularity and air barge, it left me wondering about the power dynamics between the two teams. And yet, we get the impressively efficient transportation surge Fused(?) and we see that the number of honorspren ready to bond with humans is fully used up (I wonder what’s the issue with the last one?). Really curious what else the Fused have up their sleeves and what other limitations Dalinar and co will see.
Liked the Mink, he does get the impression of the eccentric and talented general (someone mentioned he could be a Willshaper – like that idea a lot). Also, this reminds me of the Five Great Generals in WoT,and that Brandon was involved in writing some of the cool battles out there (the one from Arad.. Doman? was the one that impressed me the most). Excited to see what’s going to happen there. The foreshadowing about tactical retreats is slighty worrying, though.
Lirin – meh. Just meh. Didn’t like him in the first book, not liking his judgmental attitude here to any non pacifist either. At the same, he did have a point regardless pointless border disputes pre Desolation, but he refuses to take a more nuanced and realistic approach. There are wars and there are wars. At the same time his attitude towards singers and human alike, that he shall health both equally,might be important, but his fatalistic acceptance of defeat and willingness to surrender is not very useful at all in the current situation.
Re Galivar – quite the douchebag, smart, ambitious and manipulative. A few thoughts on what he tells Navani: re telling her Jasnah to marry Amaram vs requesting, he could simply be lying to Navani- after all, he already kept lots of secrets from her. Not taking Jasnah into his confidence – I think that, contrary to what he says, he knows that Jasnah is very smart and perceptive,and if he thinks that she would not support his plans, it is better to keep her away, as it would be much harder for him to fool her with lies, deceptions and misdirections (unlike someone like Amaram).
Re Navani – like her character quite a lot. Also, I think she has the impostor syndrome, which I see surprisingly often in folks in academia. It does not help that Gavilar played on such self doubts, but the way Navani sees her work, and the way she interacts with ardents,provides ideas for them to work with is, essentially, what any good professor would do when leading a reserach group: provide funds and equipment, get the right experts in, give them the strategic goals and general research directions, and let the team do the work to fine tune the details. And she’s extremely successful, as we can see from all of her designs that get realized by her team.
Also, regarding Heralds, been thinking this for many years and haven’t seen it mentioned: I think that Dabbid is Kelek. Just a hunch I have, like the Liss is Chana theory): ee never see Dabbid talk (hence, no speech patterns to compare); he doesn’t play with stormlight (as a herald, he’s already invested quite a bit right?); Kelek was a nervous, paranoid little guy in the prologue and going into full battle can put an already deeply traumatized herald into shock, which also happens to be the next logical step (arguably) in the progression towards being non-Resolute (or resolutely not doing anything) and not building anything at all (as it can be argued that subversion of creation is stasis, rather than destruction).
Finally, re 9 orders vs 10: I think there was a WoB where he said that it was the Bondsmiths who were missing.
Looking forward to seeing what happens next, see you next week!
Xxviolaxx, Gepeto:
You seem to willfully disregard the fact that Navani (and Ialai) contributed to Gavilar building up and retaining his kingdom. Sure, the dudes did the conquering, but from Dalinar’s second flashback in OB and Navani’s own PoVs it is clear that the women did the unglamorous, but essential intelligence and maintenance work.
Also, there were excellent reasons to have reservations about young berserker Dalinar – as his own chapters proved. In fact, if they had married back then, it probably would have ended in tears too. Navani was too Alethi to recognize Dalinar’s problems and try to help him, like Evi did.
As regards Navani’s work as an artifabrian – it is only after her arrival at the Shattered Plains that we saw new fabrial inventions pop up. Until then, only a few long established fabrials were in use, and everything else was either mechanical or just muscle-driven. It is easy to say that “anybody” could have organized the artifabrians and given them direction, but the fact is that until Navani nobody did. And it isn’t like other nobles lacked resources – but they clearly lacked vision and ability to assemble and effectively manage teams of competent artifabrians. Also, the pain fabrial appears to have been her personal invention and Jasnah considered her mother to be the artifabrian to go to, to get a broken soulcaster repaired. Sad to see folks fall for Gavilar’s gaslighting…
Gepeto @87:
You are setting yourself up for a disappointment – Shallan is our eyes and ears, without her around we won’t know what happens. And besides, let’s say Ialai does take Adolin prisoner – why wouldn’t she just kill him? I really don’t see anything particularly interesting happening between them at this point. Killing his young wife and making him suffer as she had suffered would be a better revenge anyway.
Carl @96:
Why wouldn’t Leshwi know? The Fused who talked to Venli certainly did. And they almost certainly observe their victims from the Cognitive realm before posessing them. Flying Fused definitely know the truth about the Listeners and their rebellion against BAM/Odium, yet they forced Venli to lie about that too. For that matter, there is no reason to think that the new singers providing bodies are being told the truth either. I don’t think that many of them are fanatical enough to voluntarily sacrifice themselves – not yet.
Leshwi et al. are playing Kaladin and his Windrunners. Making them used to what amounts to Quidditch matches, so that they would learn all the wrong things – like lack of coordinated teamwork, and be surprised and confused for fateful minutes when the real attack comes and all the “rules” go out the window. She supervised Moash’s turn into Vyre and he is conveniently present for a reason.
Regarding Shallan being drained of stormlight by a larkin or similar, she’d still have Patternblade, but she’d become very killable. Just shoot her full of arrows. Or have a trained warrior in Sadeas’s own shardplate (Rock only got Amaram’s/Helaran’s) jump her and break her neck. Easy-peasy.
Concerning Navani – for good or ill waking the Sibling is one of the major plots of this book. It would be narratively unsatisfying if some random unknown does it. And among the somewhat fleshed-out characters so far nobody else fits. Sure, there is still the Interlude novella to build up an alternative candidate But if not, then there is just her or double-bonding of an already existing “main” Radiant, which I, for one, would dislike. Also, this very chapter goes out of it’s way to show that something is happening to Navani, with her being able to see into Shadesmar and hear a mysterious Tone, while a normal person beside her can’t.
According to the gem archive in OB, Radiants with just one Bondsmith are in a very precarious situation as well, and surely the Final Desolation should rate fielding all 3?
They are the spren who bond with/possess parsh.
@102
Fused are not spren, they are actually cognitive shadows, not unlike the ones on Threnody (who also use investiture, BTW. I wonder what silver would do to the Fused?). Spren were never living beings in the physical realm, but cognitive shadows were. Also, Fused would progress to the beyond if freed/released from Odium’s power.
@101Isilel. Anything is better than nothing! Everyone keeps on praising Sanderson for never disappointing so why should I settle for yet another disappointment? Even if Shallan is the one with the viewpoint, right now, it does not mean she is not the bait and Adolin the catch. As for Ialai’s plan, it could be anything but I do not believe she would not want to take revenge on Adolin…. that would be OOC for her to do so.
Sanderson also implied the ramifications would last longer than 6 chapters… Adolin will actually get viewpoints. The fact he has none now does not mean the narrative is dead.
We are so early in the book… I really do not want to settle for yet another Adolin related disappointement. Hence, I Will keep an open mind. Wé do not know Ialai’s complete plan. Let’s not aussme just yet it won’t back onto Adolin even if, right now, Shallan is the eyes.
On Navani, she did settle, twice, for the most powefull man around. Perhaps some of us are not wrong is thinking it might tell us something about her character.
Concerning Shallan:
Obviously it is a trap. And that is the reason it took 4 weeks to abdicate her, something had to be procured for the scene. By the way: Do larkins need eye-contact to drain investiture.
Furthermore: the more that we hear, that the SoH are babbling, bumbling band of baboons, the more we more we should expect there is more to them. Furthermore there is the unsolved mystery of Restares.
She is far from helpless though. Adolin is nearby and can be easily fetched by Pattern, all that fencing training will get screen time eventually and perhaps most important we should never underestimate her talent as a con-woman.
That said I think murdering Ialai is a very bad idea:
First for reasons of inter-persona dynamics. Veil does it to finish the job Adolin begun (and to please Shallan), Shallan endorses it, and Radiant gets sidelined. I cannot help to fear, that such actions will shatter the confortable balance her personas have settled in. I think this balance is much more fragile, than she thinks. And I enjoyed reading them, I do not relish a fall-back to the sniping of OB.
The politics don‘t add up either. Dalinar and Jasnah shall keep their eyes on reclaiming Alethkar That is not the way a feudalist society works. Assassinating a High Prince (and Ialai is a High Prince – not yet indicted – gaining evidence was the purpose of her mission) will simply rile up the remaining High Princes against Jasnah and Dalinar (I assume Adolin‘s murder is still a close secret).
Spoiler (from the German ad. Yes Heyne doesn‘t think any series can be sold without spoiling the content.)
Maybe that is a reason, they were chosen for the second Shadesmar expedition. It was simply expedient to get them out of sight.
What worries me most, is that she resorts more and more to violence as means to solve problems. Something bad will come of it, I fear.
Nevertheless an Adolin POV would be most appreciated concerning her state of mind.
Some snippets:
Shallan does not infiltrate the Ghostbloods, they are infiltrating her. And if I interpret correctly, she has not told Jasnah to the day.
In WoR we have first seen the organizing talent of Navani. Shallan discovered Urithiru, but it was Navani, who provided her with all possible and necessary means. Such talent should (and will) not be wasted, there is enough (male-centered) genie-cult in the legacy of SFF.
@104
I’m not sure that “settle” is the most accurate way to describe her relentless pursuit of Dalinar in WoK. That can be viewed different ways, of course. Her claim that she didn’t marry the one she loved most could be her self-justification for again zeroing in on the most powerful man. Or, it could be the truth.
Either way, I don’t think it discounts her contributions, whether tangible or more ephemeral. And, her best may be yet to come.
I never realized Navani was such a controversial character. I think some of the devaluing of her contributions is similar to how many people devalue labor that was traditionally done by women – childcare, elder care, event planning, organization, household management,etc. It is difficult work to do well, and when you do it well, people don’t even notice because “anyone could have done it”.
Alethkar divided labor between the sexes in an extreme way. Navani may have married powerful men, but that meant she had more work to do, as people have already noted. In some ways I would argue Dalinar “married up” as the saying goes; Navani is respected and extraordinarily competent. She brings persuasive writing skills, forward-thinking ideas (demonstrated countless times through her work with her team of artifabrians), love, patience, and understanding for Dalinar’s “eccentricities” (the way other Alethi view Dalinar’s personality changes; who knows how they will take him reading!!).
People have brought up the idea that the SofH are saying their “queen” has the true claim on the throne. I had some thoughts on that today.
I’ve long thought the similarity between Sadees and Sadeas is interesting. Just one letter different. It is possible that is the claim. We know that when The Sun King was defeated, his ten sons split the kingdom. Who was the oldest son? Maybe the one whose Princedom became Sadeas? Would that perhaps be where the claim is coming from? That Sadeas had more right than Kohlin to rule due to who the ancestral son was?
The other option, as mentioned, is that it isn’t Ialai, but Aesudun(sp?) that is behind it all.
Yeah, please don’t devalue Navani. I can see how a reputation for chasing powerful men could be a stain on her legacy but really. After being married to Gavilar who else could she have gotten with after he died? Did you expect her to just go away, wither and die? Maybe she should have opted to be soulcasted next to her husband. Truth is there’s no one else in her social circle she could have gotten with. Besides that, she was maybe 20 when she met the Kholin boys. Who can say they’ve never made bad romantic choices at that age? Now if she tried to pursue Dalinar while Evi was alive that’d be a little different. But he was unattached and so was she. She recognized that she probably should have married Dalinar in the first place and from her POV’s I believe his personal power had little to do with it. After all, she had nearly as much power as the Dowager Queen as she has being Dalinar’s wife.
But let’s say for the sake of argument that she really is the ambitious power hungry woman many suspect that she is. That still does not take away from her brilliance, nor does it mean that we should discard her contributions to the war effort, either in the Alethi unification campaign or the Last Desolation. I can’t imagine how they win without her. The thousand little details that go into massive civic projects or world wars need organization of effort and efficiency. As great a man as Dalinar is, he isn’t equipped to do what Navani does with ease. Dalinar can lead soldiers, Gavilar could inspire the love and loyalty of both the masses and his political rivals, but neither are detail oriented. Navani is. So even if you feel she’s manipulative and power hungry you cannot deny that she is effective. Gavilar misused her talents out of distrust, Dalinar is taking full advantage because he recognizes her value and isn’t threatened by her competence. It’s why I never understood the hate for her character.
@Gepeto:
“Something” is exactly correct. No one that I’m aware of denies her attraction to power. It also is not the only thing that defines her. That’s like taking my love of books and saying that’s all you need to know about me.
@El Cochino:
We know that he took the name on purpose to honor his eminent ancestor, don’t we? All the families of Highprinces descend from the Sunmaker.
@106 arod. Obviously. Her best is probably to come, but comments are not surprising me.
@107 Evelina. Navani was a controversial character within previous re-reads…. She was called a gold-digger during the OB re-read. Not all readers liked her. She was mean towards Evi, snobby, condescending. She came to the Shattered Plains with the intent to re-seduce Dalinar. She presumably came after her capacity of influence had eroded back in Kholinar. Now, RoW starts and we see her attaching herself to powerfull men, stating it was Gavilar’s fault if she was not a great searcher and while Gavilar was an abusive piece of junk, it did not seem as if he were totally in the wrong here. Navani did pick him, in parts, because he was going to be king.
Now, I am not saying this is the right analysis for her character. She has been mostly in the background within previous books, but the reasons why she is controversial existed prior to RoW. Not all readers found her sympathetic….
Hence, I am not surprised. Besides, is there really ONE character we all agree on? I don’t think so….
@110. Carl. Very true. One could say my attachment to Adolin’s character makes me an insane lunatic in dire need of a therapy, but this only is one thing I like, not the extend of my person. However, unless other people are interested in knowing who I am, this may be their sole perspective. Hence, to their eyes, I am crazy and not worth their time.
The same applies to Navani. The perspectives we have gotten from her were too scarce to give us enough knowledge of her true persona. Some take what we have and draw a favorable portrayal, others do not. This is true for other characters too.
All we can ask each other is not to let our perspective become static, to allow them to be dynamic, to change, evolve. Some of us may see Navani in a slightly defavorable light, right now, but we haven’t seen all she is. Yet. We just have to allow ourselves to see the rest of her.
When I read that I immediately pondered what could be in the hutch. Larkin much???
Although I’m not sure if a Larkin would have drawn the light from the sphere lamps.
I think Navani’s attraction to power is a separate issue from her attraction to Dalinar. She had power in her own right when she came to the Plains. What power did she really gain when she married Dalinar? Is there anything she accomplished that she couldn’t have done without that marriage? I would argue that her power on the Plains was near absolute. Her son was too weak to deny her anything, her connection with the Kholin family meant she could move through the social circles there with impunity, and Dalinar could trust her to be his head scribe with only a small fear of betrayal. He may not have quite trusted her to hold together the coalition when he broke down but he’d have to trust her more than anyone else in his entourage. Jasnah is the only other woman alive he could have entrusted with the work Navani does. So how does marrying Dalinar improve her position, increase her power? It doesn’t. Once she came to the Plains there’s no one who’d dare try to marginalize her like back in Kholinar.
Why is it wrong for a woman to want power? She has to get it through marriage instead of war because that is how her society defines gender roles. That doesn’t make it evil for a woman to want what seems to be normal to want for men.
Remember, everyone, it is bad and wrong to marry someone because they’re important and powerful and you can become more important and powerful through your connection with them.
The righteous and moral way to gain power is to kill everyone who stands in your way, including members of your own family, so that you can eventually stand crowned atop a mountain of corpses. You know that you have the approval of the Almighty when you can fill a small lake with the blood of your victims!
Navani is a person, which means that she often has complicated and confusing feelings. The book makes it fairly clear that Navani chose Gavilar partially because he was the king, and partially because she found Dalinar both attractive and somewhat frightening. She went with the safe choice, listening to her head instead of her heart.
But she never stopped being attracted to Dalinar, and after Gavilar’s death she decided that she wanted to be with Dalinar and started courting him. This is only wrong if you operate under the assumption that women are supposed to be passive, frail creatures who cannot take the initiative.
Navani is a project manager. This is difficult, demanding work, and it is absurd to ignore the value of administration.
There are plenty of reasons to criticize Navani, but we should drop the absurd double standard that says women aren’t allowed to be flawed people, insists that it is just awful for a women to act on her desires, and degrades “female work” like project management.
@114 birgit
For all their flaws, the Alethi seem to be much more accepting of ambitious, powerful women than many posters writing from what are presumably modern First World countries. They may be awful Social Darwinists, but in some ways they aren’t nearly as sexist.
@113 Monkey. But Navani comes to the Shattered Plains because she no longer had power and influence in Kholinar… Without Gavilar, it appears she was unable to retain enough of it. Then, she seeks out Dalinar… This is why some readers called her a gold-digger. There anything wrong with seeking opportunities through marriage, but the fact she believed she had to do so does raise questions with regards to her real worth.
She couldn’t make it on her own in a world in a world where only women can be scholars. She had to seek formal alliance with powefull men because marrying Dalinar did allow her to push with her projets. Now, others listen to her ideas: she couldn’t pitch them without Dalinar.
Also, we must not forget the fact she was so mean towards Evi did put off some readers. It drew a defavorable portrayal of Navani.
@114 birgit. The reason some people frown on it is if your sphere of influence is awarded to you because of your connections, then your merits are diminished. And it isn’t just a female character” against a “male character”. Adolin gets similar comments because he hasn’t earned much by himself, he was awarded most of his successes through his connections and wealth. It is also why Kaladin is the most popular character: he has to fight for every scrap he owns.
Also, the reason some readers have not warmed up to Navani also is because it has been hard to figure out if her feelings towards Dalinar were genuine. Did she really love him or did she want to be relevant again? In WoK, Navani states how she had become irrelevant in Kholinar to explain why she came to the Shattered Plains.
It seems logical to conclude Navani, without Gavilar, was unable to garner enough influence to pursue her projects. Hence, she needed another profitable marriage.
I however do not see it as a man against a woman thing. In Alethkar, men can marry above their stations and use those new connections to further their careers. This is what Lirin intended for Kaladin.
I saw no one call her evil, but some seem to be wondering how capable Navani would be, on her own, without her powefull marriages. This is why I do not wish for her to become another Bondsmith. I want her to do her own thing, without Dalinar.
@115 duptullos. I saw no one arguing Navani was not allowed to have a flaw because she is a woman. I saw readers argue Navani’s flaws’ had to do with a lack of self-assertiveness combined to a need to be married to powefull men which makes some of us doubt her real feelings.
None of this has to do with her being a woman. Renarin gets similar comments.
The reason the projet manager is looked down up on is because Navani spends a long time using it as an excuse not to pitch her own projects. She wanted to be an inventor but she never took steps towards making it happening. No one said the job was not hard or non-essential. What some of us said was it wasn’t up to her to do it IF she wished to spend her time doing more research.
She also is constantly waiting for others to tell her what she has accomplished. This isn’t how life works: if you want for others to tell you how much you are worth, then you will wait a long time. Maybe a lifetime.
@Gepeto
But that’s the point I was trying to make. She lost influence in the capital but nobody trumps her influence on the Plains. On the Plains no one had the political capital to oppose her other than Ialai, and their interests don’t truly coincide. She had free rein in the warcamps, she didn’t need Dalinar to obtain any additional power. Remember she wanted him despite him being presumed crazy, before he knew Radiance, when his political star was in decline. At the time she started pursuing him it could have done nothing but weaken her political influence. She wanted him despite knowing he intended to abdicate. But people want to smash her cause she was snotty to Evi a few times? Or is it because she was subjected to a couple decades worth of marital abuse which leaves her somewhat shaky in the self confidence department?
@117 Monkey. Navani attaches herself to Dalinar the moment she arrives at the Shattered Plains. We don’t really see her making it on her own. We see her working with the Ardents only after she establishes her relationship with Dalinar. Hence, if she indeed had enough influence on her own, we do not actually see it in the book.
I saw no one smashing Navani, but she was criticized, in the OB re-read, for her behavior with Evi. As I mentioned, we are working with a character having had limited exposure.
Not all readers will reach the same conclusions. All readers come from different places. A same behavior will not trigger a same reaction.
I’m surprised that some are taking the criticism of Navani to be sexist. It’s not. I would be equally off put by a man marrying powerful women to make something of himself. @monkey @evelina It’s also definitely not the only way for women to get ahead in this world. It just isn’t. Rysn. She’s Thaylen? What about the ardents? The judge at Adolins tournament who was the ultimate authority in her field? Rushu? The scholars, scribes and authors? You don’t want Navani to be an ardent? Then look to Shallan who – true jumped at the idea of marrying to gain influence – but made something of herself before that – first by becoming Jasnahs ward and then by distinguishing herself because of her talents and intelligence. What about Lyn and Ka and the other women who went for their dream of becoming squires in spite of the odds? All of these women didn’t have the background and opportunities Navani had (even before she married) and yet fought to become something more. Another example – this time someone who’s also had a privileged upbringing but didnt feel the need to marry for power but rather used her own intelligence to get it – is Jasnah. It can’t come as a surprise that some of us don’t think too highly of a privileged woman (meaning she already had opportunities, choices, owned ardents etc etc) who marries one man who would be king while in love with his brother and then after a long and loveless marriage, complaining about how awful it is not to be relevant anymore, marries said brother who just happens to now be the most powerful man around. Enough has been said about how she had no power on the plains. Here and in the books.The benefit of a union (not that she cared about vows) with Dalinar is obvious.
@birgit @duptollus Yes, a woman wanting power is not bad. But there’s a reason ‘gold digger’ isn’t a positive term. It’s because most people look down on ‘leeches’ who marry to get that power without putting in the work themselves. You might consider being a “patron” as she is often described as great work but for me it’s just not on par with what Kaladin, Shallan etc do. Even Adolin who at first glance seems to be the very definition of someone who has had things handed to him does everything he can with what he’s got and throws himself into the actual work, taking care of the internal affairs of his house, working as both a general planing battles and risking his own life as a soldier. We see no such selflessness or indeed any hint of moral values or backbreaking work from Navani. All we’ve seen of her character so far is that she never really strove for anything with everything she’s got (other than men) and her interactions with others are either lustful, ‘maternal’ or downright horrible (Evi).
It’s also of note that (unlike the aforementioned other women) women who do marry to obtain power (ex. Ialai, Aesudan) aren’t particularly nice.
Also – comparing what she does to care work is absurd imo. It’s like saying that rich housewifes organising of nannies and maids (who DO the actual care work) is in itself care work as it wouldn’t get done if they hadn’t hired others and pointed to the work. What Navani does as Queen and Dalinars wife is not comparable.
I anticipated that she’d get a lot of sympathy because Gavilar said some harsh things to her but I making her out to be this poor little victim is a bit much. She was so insistent and pushy with Dalinar.. clearly she’s not this meek little girl with no self confidence. She stood up to Gavilar too. I don’t particularly like her right now but she might be more than a “mature beauty” who gets others to implement her ideas. There’s room for us to see a lot more.
@119
Do you know what happens when a bunch of very smart people enter into a massive project with no guidance? Nothing. Nothing at all. Even if one is to discount her other efforts (I’m not willing but to each their own) the airbridge is a massive undertaking and a marvel of modern Rosharan technology. That is Navani’s brainchild. And without her vision it would have never left the ground. Let’s add another of Navani’s accomplishments to the table. Finding Urithiru. It was Shallan’s plan, Shallan’s idea, but Navani’s management made it happen.
Humans are hierarchical. They don’t accomplish much without a hand to direct the many moving parts. Even bad management accomplishes more than no management, but great management accomplishes great things. Navani is a great manager. To me, the concept that just anyone could have done what Navani does is the absurd statement. If say Rushu, as brilliant as she is, was the one in charge of the flying airbridge project, they’d have never made it past the planning stage because there would be no one to keep her focused and on task. Rysn wouldn’t have the knowledge of where to best place resources. Jasnah maybe could have managed it but her personality would be too abrasive to smooth rumpled feathers or coax brilliance out of disparate parties.
From context clues I don’t see Navani as having a noble background. She didn’t grow up privileged. And if she scored the most eligible bachelor in her nation I don’t begrudge her for it. Why? Because she earned her keep. A ‘gold diggers is despised not just because she picks a dude with riches, it’s because she does nothing once she achieves that pinnacle. Navani by contrast kept the kingdom together. Denigrate her love choices, not her competency.
The idea that marriage has to be only about love without any other motives is very recent. For most of history marriages were political/economic alliances between families that had little to do with love.
Navani is a talented manager, but she must first reach a position where she has access to a team she can manage. She is the one who has the ideas and finds the right people to turn the ideas into something real. That some people think it doesn’t count as real work if you aren’t the one doing the detail work is why she lacks self-confidence. But people like Rushu who are great at detail work can’t make a big project work on their own because they get lost in the details and lose sight of the whole.
Note, by the way, that Navani came up with the idea for the airship herself and personally drew the overall design. We see her do it on stage! Then she refined the design, herself. Don’t let her insecurity obscure her central role.
Of course Navani isn’t flawless. This is the book with her redemption arc (I suspect)–you can’t have a redemption arc unless the character has sins. I suspect we find out in this book about the oath the Stormfather told her she broke, for one. that’s a Chekov’s gun that has to be fired by the end of the next book, and I’m assuming that Book Five will be plot-heavy, as Brandon wraps up the Front Five.
Personally I don’t get why people are so quick to forget the justice glyph scene with Navani. It shows a strong, passionate, genuine woman, filled with a love for a man long denied that she thinks she lost forever. There is literally nothing that could have been gained for her in that moment if she was just a gold digger. If she was just a gold digger she would have been lining the next highprince up to pursue, or started to manipulate renarin who was the heir and thereby be the power behind the man.
And we know all of this was genuine and a fact because we were in her head while she did it. So we know the why. She isn’t an unreliable narrator like shallan.
So Navani genuinely was hurt over the loss of Dalinar. Navani at great risk to herself confronted sadeas. Navani, not caring if it made her look hysterical or what have you, stopped everything and cried out to her god for justice.
For myself, that scene does not show a gold digger. It shows a strong woman who loves.
I find I agree with @119 Violax, but I also think, as I mentioned numerous times, the lack of exposure causes readers to draw very different portrayal of the same character. For instance, on the 17th Shard, they have an interpretation of Adolin, finding him irrelevant, inimportant, without a purpose other than dying for a shock moment. Yet, reading the same narrative, I draw a completly different portrayal. This is what a lack of exposure causes: readers will fill in the holes as they see fit.
The 17th Shard crew hates Adolin’s character, so they choose to fill the holes in a very negative manner. I am not Navani’s greatest fan: she isn’t a character I find super interesting. The woman suffering from house abuse without a fight is a trope I really do not enjoy reading.
Hence, I will criticize Navani for her lack of self-assertiveness, of will-power because those are flaws I hate in a character. We could say I fill in the holes more negatively than others because the character does not resonate with me very strongly. Am I right or wrong? I am certainly right about the lack of capacity to speak up and I cannot help being turned off by it.
I thus find other female characters such as Shallan, Rysn, Lyn, Kara, Rushu all more interesting than Navani for all the reasons mentioned by Violax.
This being said, she could grow into a character I end up enjoying. I can’t say that yet, I can only speak of how I am relating to the current narrative and why.
It doesn’t seem that Gavilar and Navani were unhappy in the early part of their marriage. It was stated they plotted and conspired together to make the conquest of Alethkar happen. It’s after the battles are done and Gavilar is King in fact and not just by attempt, that things change. More and more of the inside work of kingship is delegated to Navani as Queen. She is not just sitting around; she doing Gavilar’s job and her own. A woman who was power hungry would be using this as an opportunity to take over, to make her own power base.
I don’t recall anything being said that makes me think Ialai married just for power. You could make that claim against any woman who married a high prince. Evie married a high prince to gain safety for herself and her brother.
As for what power the Dowager Queen has, it depends on the King and the Queen. Clearly Asueden was the power between herself and Elhokar so Navani was pushed aside in Kholenar once her son was gone. In the Shattered Plains Elhokar was held up mostly by Dalinar and the general consensus was that Dalinar was going crazy. It would have seemed more likely that Navani would have realigned herself with her old buddies Sadeus and Ialai and worked to remove Dalinar if she wanted just the power.
@91: There’s a reference to seven-month pregnancy in Oathbringer when Jasnah snarks at Amaram about his mother.
Sorry it took me so long to check in. I’m LOVING the comments! I wish I could respond to every single one, but I don’t think I could avoid spoilers if I did. Many of your questions, particularly regarding continuity issues, will be answered in this book. So just a couple of general comments:
Yes, I shamelessly stole the alliteration from Professor McGonagall. Thank you for noticing. (bad_platypus, you know me too well! :D )
About the POVs you’re missing: I’m not going to drop hints about what’s coming for different characters, but as has been said multiple times, it’s Chapter 6. This book has a prologue, 117 chapters, 12 Interludes, an epilogue, and an Ars Aracanum. It’s going to be around 1250 pages long, and it’s going to be a rollercoaster. Journey before destination, okay? Try not to assume you know an entire arc – plot or character – from the first day’s events. (And yes, we’re still on Day 1, remember.)
Again, as has been noted several times, there are pros and cons to reading the serialization. It gives lots of time to dig in and notice things that will turn out to be foreshadowing, and lots of time (in this case) to talk about the things that happened during the timeskip as they’re dropped into the narrative. It can also give a feeling of being strung along, always expecting the next chapter to resolve a question or situation, when there are still twists and turns that will unfold prior to the expected resolution. One of the things I’d point out her, though: The opening chapters are a combination of “wrapping up the timeskip” and “setting up the new plot lines.” Nothing here is really a throw-away scene; it will matter, even if you don’t find out how until November 22 (or however long it takes you to read the other four parts). Some, you’ll find out much sooner, of course.
Andrew @72 – We do not see the Ars Arcanum in the beta read, but we do review it during the gamma.
Mark @73 – Yes, you will find some typos in the serialization. This is essentially the version we’re using to do the gamma, so it hasn’t been through proofreading yet.
@several re: Navani – she was 19 when Jasnah was born. If she got pregnant almost immediately, she still couldn’t have been more than 18 when she chose Gavilar. Also, she wasn’t exactly “privileged” before that; she was “a backwater country girl” who married a man who was trying to make himself king.
Re: pregnancy, assuming gestation is similar for Rosharan women as Earth women, it would be 7 and a half months.
112, I am starting to think that the Larkin theory won’t work with the sphere lamps not drained. If a Larkin can be trained to not drink the stormlight from the lamps, and instead drink it from the disguise, then I would probably go with that there might be one in there, whether in the hutch or some other part of the room. It depends on how trusting they are in the Lightweaving detector device, do they trust it entirely, or do they think that if it does not work the Larkin can back them up?
To those that are shipping Leshwi/Kaladin, I’d like to throw an alternate ship out there, albeit between two characters that have had (I think) literally no contact yet. Since the end of Oathbringer, I’ve been intrigued by the notion of a Kaladin/Venli ship.
My main thoughts along these lines are twofold. One is simply that Kaladin more than any other character seems to relate to the Parshmen on a personal level, so he seems the most likely character to have a relationship with one (if that is a thing that happens at all). The other is that I think Kaladin and Venli share a similar, traumatic burden. They both feel responsible for the death of their sibling. Kaladin because he couldn’t protect Tien and Venli because her ambition is what pushed Eshonai to bond the voidspren. Both of them admired their lost siblings, viewing Tien and Eshonai as better than themselves (granted, Venli’s opinion is colored that way in retrospect).
Now I don’t claim to know at all whether founding a relationship on this kind of shared trauma is in any way a GOOD idea or not, but I’ve certainly seen this behavior from some people I know in real life. There’s also the fact that Kaladin and Venli may have TOO similar personalities. Both could be described as somewhat hot-headed, stubborn, and brooding. But I don’t think we’ve gotten a chance to get to know Venli as well as Kaladin. Most of our time inside her head was in the middle of cataclysmic and terribly trying events, so I think she’s got plenty of room to defy expectations in the personality department.
So uhh, yeah…that’s my case for a Kaladin/Venli ship.
Proofreading notes:
“though she waited—ready to attack—in case this was some kind of ruse, and she was assaulted.”
The comma is unnecessary here.
“She could visit it [Shadesmar] in person if she wished, using the Oathgates”
Didn’t Oathbringer explicitly state that travel between Realms by Oathgate was forbidden by Honor, so the Oathgate spren can’t do it now, and the only way it happened to our heroes was that one of the gate spren in Kholinar was corrupted?
@130 Mason
First of all, thanks for commenting on something other than Navani.
Yes, those huge spren had been denied the ability to transfer anyone between the realms. I’m guessing that something during the skip changed that edict, or (less likely) this will be edited out in the final printed version.
I recall having the feeling during OB that this could have been overcome, if only the right people/circumstances were present. I hope to find out what that entailed.
Hey all, am I alone in thinking Shallan is properly in the fire here? Ialai has a HUTCH next to her – less for rabbits, more for stormlight eating little critters?!
Whatever the results of Shallan’s current predicament, I think we can know official rule out that Shallan’s death will not be the end result. The cover for the US version (which was revealed on Tor.com earlier today (Monday August 17) depicts a scene that will happen sometime after Shallan’s current situation.
By the way if you have not already, I recommend looking at the cover. I think it is a cool cover.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
132: Nope, I’m with you, as well as some others! I hope we get to see what happens with Shallan in the chapters tomorrow!
Wetlandernw @127:
Well, I ought to, after reading what I expect is a rather surprisingly large percent of your comments over the years. (I’m not sure exactly when I joined the community; I know for sure I wasn’t in from the beginning of Leigh’s WoT Re-Read, but as far as I can tell my first ever post was on May 6, 2009, in The Wheel of Time Re-read: The Shadow Rising, Part 15 post. I know I was lurking for a while before I made a post and I remember thinking (years ago) that I’d seen your first ever post on the WoT Re-Read, but I could be making that up. And since then, we’ve been on a lot of the same threads, although I’ve been somewhat quieter. :-D)
P.S. Locating that thread was a hoot: so many blasts from the past, a few of whom (aside from us) are still active today!
Am I the only one here hoping that it’s not just odd Windrunner tactics that are distracting poor Rushu but rather their dashing leader as well? Perhaps the village ardent mooning over Kaladin in the previous book was foreshadowing. Certainly Rushu would be my favorite pick for Kaladin – much better than Leshwi or other candidates, in my opinion.
[Pre-post/comments]
Okay, I know I was kinda joking earlier but…Kaladin and Leswhi definitely have a Thing. Maybe not romance, but…it’s a thing. Like, the grinning at each other while stabbing each other? That’s…well, that’s one type of romance, I guess. You do you. (But honestly, I think part of it amuses me because Kal is just so broody and intense and it just kind of…works for me.)
I kinda love Rushu, and I love how all the characters have their own quirks and personalities.
I really want more insight on these other Truthwatchers, and on Renarin and Glys!
[Post]
And, as it turns out, I took the quiz and I aligned pretty well with Truthwatchers! Renarin is one of my favorite characters (although he may not be a typical Truthwatcher) so this kind of jazzes me. And some of the things in the description were oddly specific and right on – more than any other personality test I’ve taken :) In fact, I also see similarities between the Brown and Yellow Ajahs (in Wheel of Time – scholars and healers, respectively) and Jedi Healers in Star Wars which are my favorite factions in those orders so I’m honestly super psyched that I matched up with a scholar order that has healing powers. It also kind of lines up with the way I approach my religious/spiritual life, and while I’m now a software developer, my previous schooling was in microbiology and I was goign to be a scientist. (I also have a kind of alter-ego fanfic persona that is basically a Jedi healer who blends biology and microbiology knowledge with Force knowledge to do stuff which I always thought would be a fascinating concept, along with the idea of doing research on midichlorians, etc).
Hah, glad my ship isn’t totally out there. Yes, I do get the somewhat problematic implication of the enemy/lover ship (Reylos, I’m looking at you…but also occasionally secretly watching Reylo YouTube videos…) but there is a certain tension/drama to it. As soon as she speared Sgizil I was like, ‘well, that’s the end of that’ – I really don’t think Sanderson would go THAT gritty – but then when she spared him I was like, oh, it’s ON.
I do think the shared history with Moash could certainly complicate things (and there’s always the possibility she’s just playing a long con to lull the Windrunners into complacency which I think could be just as likely, if not more so. I do wonder of Moash’s appearance is meant to clue us into something in that respect).
I also wonder if Ialai is pulling a double cross. Shallan keeps noting how this is all too easy…well, maybe that’s on purpose. I didn’t catch until a commenter noted it that Ialai is in darkness so maybe it’s not even her.
Isiel@101 (and Evilina, et al) – I just want to say that I really agree, and I also find there to be a kind of subtly misogynistic ‘not-like-other-girls feminist’ undertone to the criticism of Navani as ‘just’ a social climber/marrying for power, etc. It’s not that it doesn’t happen – or even that Navani herself (which she admits) wasn’t doing that at least partially – but even if she was, so what? Like men don’t also seek out advantageous partnerships (romantically or otherwise)? And as you point out, there are reasons to want to go with the ‘safer’ route even against what your own desires might be, and I don’t think her love for Dalinar has anything to do with seeking power (even if he does happen to be powerful). I’m not saying it’s optimal (and even Navani recognizes that in her own POV) – and I wonder if Gavilar deep down felt slighted/led on by it – but I don’t see it as her defining characteristic either, and I think she had a lot of conflicting desires/emotions, as well as some that aren’t mutually exclusive. She may want power/influence, but ALSO love/care for Gavilar or Dalinar to varying degrees.
Regarding her talents, I work in software development on a product that involved a lot of integrated systems and modules and project management/vision is 100% a valuable skill and not something that just ‘anybody’ can do or that is easily replaceable. Plus I am pretty sure she HAS invented/researched her own fabrials (and obviously is respected enough to lecture as we see in the epigraph).
dptullos@115 – I laughed out loud at your first two paragraphs. I wrote the above before I got to your comment, but yeah, I agree.
I mean, I can totally get not caring for her or her romantic choices, but then to say that she has ZERO talent, ZERO accomplishments, that she never shows any selflessness, or morals, or genuine affection is honestly a bit beyond the pale.
“The woman suffering from house abuse without a fight is a trope I really do not enjoy reading. Hence, I will criticize Navani for her lack of self-assertiveness, of will-power because those are flaws I hate in a character.” So – I do understand this sentiment, and I definitely look for a certain confidence/assertiveness and self direction in my own relationships. But I don’t feel the same…antipathy…towards people who don’t have it, especially when there’s clearly some trauma behind it. I mean, I hate that the trope exists, but it’s a trope for a reason. Because it is a reality for some women (and men), and not because of some flaw on their part. Not all abuse victims stay victims, but not all victims rise above either and that’s not their fault. I find that kind of hated of weakness to be a bit…misaimed, especially as a really talented abuser can subtly eat away at that will power and assertiveness in their victim, thus turning them into the thing they then hate, which is a vicious cycle. I DO think it’s fair to criticize in the sense that, yes, it is an area she should work on.
Maybe someone already said this and I didn’t read through, but because Renarin’s spree is of Odium, what if he can do the teleporty light thing homeboy parish men Kaladin fought? Probably silly but just a thought.
I really thought Shallan’s chapter was a really interesting in her pysche. It really shows the control she has which is better than what was happening a year ago. I having a feeling that Shallan’s 4th or 5th ideal will be her stating her name, I am Radiant Shallan Davar of the Veil , with the definite possibility of not adding more personalities but discovering more of herself through these new thought paths.
Also Renarin’s Illumination Surge is just light and literally seeing things. Is anyone else getting more an observational usage of this, seeing with magnification (microscopes for research and telescopes for scouting), the ball of light he created has the possibility of x-rays and other radiation which could be weaponized, this co opposite of his Progression Surges of healing. He could give low level radiation sickness and maybe even develop a Stormlight/ fabrial EMP if we are continuing down that path. I’ve always suspected that some Surges may have a link to nuclear forces.
Okay, I’m stuck on this one:
”
A: Rather a comic way to reintroduce that horrible wretch…
L: This gave me such a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach, once we realized who it was.”
Who is Rushu supposed to be?! What did I miss??
@141, Cheryl,
Rushu is a character that, if I recall, first appeared in Words of Radiance. She’s an Ardent scholar who works for (is owned by?) the Kholins. I believe her most memorable appearance before this chapter was another example of being excited about the Windrunners, when they flew her to the warcamps. She’s young and emotional and very attractive.
@142, Carl
Thanks. I remember her from before, they just made it seem like I missed some connection to her being something more than what she appears to be.
I am a little behind on these…but the link for the Radiebt Order quiz isn’t working
tried googling it too but it appears the page is broken.
@Naomi: the quiz works fine here (meaning for me) and now. Either they fixed it since you posted, or there’s a problem in your setup. I suggest trying using a different web browser.